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German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ Jump to new posts
Re: JP Sauer Toplever Gewehr Pieper Rohre ellenbr 12/10/22 04:27 AM

Interesting read here. I do wonder if the author Robert is our Robert48??


5 115 Read More
Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ Jump to new posts
Re: 10.5MM cartridge battle 12/10/22 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by AGS
What is the question related to? If it a proof stamp for caliber, it could be the bore, the grooves or not really 10.5 at all, just near that based on plug gauges.
3 20 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Help Date Army & Navy Hammer Gun Argo44 12/10/22 04:24 AM
Dr. Drew and others . That number 1727 is most likely the patent use number, not the patent number.
[Linked Image from]

And this comes from hours of looking at this rabbit hole. See the last post here:

Add: Stanton built high quality and expensive locks for the trade. Others know more.
20 521 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Montana Gunsmith Needed Jamie243AI 12/10/22 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Charlie Pfleger at Hill Rod and Gun in Bozeman could likely do the repair

Thanks, Drew.
4 236 Read More
DoubleGuns For Sale @ Jump to new posts
WTB: Fox 16ga stock Bill Graham 12/10/22 01:28 AM
Need a 16ga or 20ga Fox stock, capped pistol grip, Sterlingworth grade. Thanks.
0 19 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Johann Fanzoj (Ferlach) 1946 Side by Side AndrewB 12/10/22 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Remington40x

I've had great success shooting low pressure (sub-7500 psi) 2-3/4 inch reloads in 2-1/2 inch chambers. I use the data out of the Lyman reloading manual and have found that Clays powder lets you get a load that is low pressure with 7/8 or 1 ounce of shot.

If you measure your fired hulls, you'll find some of the nominally 2-3/4 inch hulls are more like 2-11/16 inch or even slightly shorter. The crimped section does not extend the entire length of the forcing cone, which I think would help keep pressures lower than a longer hull might.

Winchester AA hulls seem to be the shortest of the hulls in my assortment, but I don't load Federals or Cheddites, except in 10 gauge, so you'd have to check them to see how they might measure.


That’s the logic I was kind of operating on, but turns out they already were reamed to 2-3/4. Took it up to the gunsmith after work and they measured and confirmed. Makes loading easier for sure.
53 1,216 Read More
DoubleGuns For Sale @ Jump to new posts
Re: WTB, Colt Lightening Rifle pipeliner 12/09/22 11:07 PM
2 up for auction here in Texas Michael Miears auction one 38 other on site.January.
2 95 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Game fair pipeliner 12/09/22 11:04 PM
Read all of Dig stuff and have his books.
7 348 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Wiggle in the Barrels pipeliner 12/09/22 08:20 PM
Retired pipeliner myself Amoco then BP finished up in GOM deepwater.
31 2,954 Read More
DoubleGuns For Sale @ Jump to new posts
Browning Citori 410 Lightning Silvers 12/09/22 03:00 PM
I've posted this on several sites. Advertising fee to Dave if sold no matter where the buyer saw the advert.

FOR LEGAL sale while at the Rock Mountain (PA) “Clays For Christmas” SxS shoot on Sunday, December 18. No pics and no shipping, please don’t ask. Those planning to do the event can inspect in person while there.

Browning Citori Lightning over/under shotgun, 410 gauge for 2-1/2 and 3" shells, Unfired and as brand new with box and paperwork but has been assembled for gun safe storage, has 28” barrels with factory choke tubes and wrench. This is the regular Lightning model with blued steel receiver and sexy round knob grip. NO sales tax, no tax admin fee, no shipping charge. Also, no checks, bring cash money if interested. Buyer to do and pass a Federal Form 4473 background check for the legal transfer.

Price is $1800. firm. Please let me know if you're interested. Otherwise the Lightning will say at home and I'll advertise again for the next event I'll be at. Again, no shipping either now or in the future. It's just too much of a hassle.
0 82 Read More
Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ Jump to new posts
Re: Oddest in a While Bob Saathoff 12/09/22 02:36 PM
Vickers-Armstrong made some Martini rifles in the same way. Barrel and receiver all in one piece.

[Linked Image from]
6 320 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Parker Repro BrentD 12/09/22 01:19 PM
FWIW, Puglisi has a 12 gauge, 2-barrel set for $9k and then a consecutively matched pair of 2-barrel sets, also 12 gauge, but in the white, for $10.5k each.
10 418 Read More
DoubleGuns For Sale @ Jump to new posts
Re: Charles Daly Lindner 10g 32" SxS LeFusil 12/09/22 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by builder
Yes, this gun is still available. One person trying to sell their own gun so they can buy this. I am in no rush however at some point I will put it on Gunbroker or International. LeFusil, Ballistic Products is now selling bismuth for $15.71/lb and seems to be available.

In order for me to feed it, I’m saying I need everything. Hulls. Loader. Powders. Wads. Etc. I have bismuth, etc. I don’t have any 10 bore components.
Lovely gun. Wish I had the stuff for it.
12 899 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: checkering GLS 12/08/22 08:00 PM
Mark Larson. He's in that area. Gil
6 344 Read More
DoubleGuns For Sale @ Jump to new posts
Re: LC Smith Field grade 12ga w/ Curtis mc 12/08/22 07:04 PM
There was a reason it was discontinued
6 397 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Winter Antique Arms Show Inquiry arrieta2 12/08/22 05:43 PM
I use to never miss it. While I have not been in a few years my dealer friends say its not like it use to be. They tell me the folks are not showing up like they use to, expenses are up for the show. When I use to go all the dealers would say its more of a dealer to dealer show with not much sold to the public. I always got in early during setup. My understand is that the Morphy Auction Company purchased the show.

John Boyd
Quality Arms
3 346 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
John Reese, Custom Diamonds Little Creek 12/08/22 04:51 PM
Anyone contacted him or the business lately? I have tried a couple times without success. Is the business still open?
0 200 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: vintage gun journal KY Jon 12/08/22 01:02 PM
Interesting article on the 20 bore side lever. It caught my attention but I just could not make the numbers work on getting it into shooting shape. It just came out money pit no matter how I figured it. It was a nice gun at one time but as noted hard to put 4,000 plus into a gun which would struggle to make 5,000 because there are always unforeseen additional needs. Also interesting that being an extractor gun made it a bit more reasonable because by now those ejectors too often need major attention due to design, wear and worse previous repairs needing to be undone.
1 418 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: OT-Michigan steelhead and grouse hunting? keith 12/08/22 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by BrentD
Originally Posted by Cold Iron
...I don't think there is a perfect place to retire to, give and take to all of them....

Lots of truth to that statement. But after a lot of agonizing we pulled the trigger a month ago on 50 acres of "Up North". It will take 18 months or so to get there but we are going. Lots to build in the meantime.

There goes the neighborhood....
36 1,020 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Partridge entertainment craigd 12/08/22 04:27 AM
I've seen Huns kicked up by a hawk fly full speed into powder snow, completely burrying themselves. Maybe, there can be a survival component to that behavior.
22 745 Read More
German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ Jump to new posts
Re: High quality German Damascus gun Der Ami 12/08/22 12:10 AM
The "cat's eyes" are the result of chisel work of the particular person that worked the action up. I wouldn't be surprised if someone smarter than I could identify the craftsman by his cat's eyes, but I can't.
7 206 Read More
DoubleGuns For Sale @ Jump to new posts
Re: B&P 2 1/2" High Pheasant 12 ga. Shells keith 12/07/22 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by pipeliner
Had access to 38k acres in central Texas 3 k in pecan trees after we lost our quail did enjoy calling in crows.Raised in Hazlehurst Ga.get a permit 22mag in the ear.

WTF??? Is this a cry for help????
16 487 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: Making a offer on a gun keith 12/07/22 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by pipeliner
... Gun was offered at 6k offered below that.5k wood and restock and no collector value. Guy shutdown on me.I don't need the gun bit the engraving was.special.What do we do guess learn to walk.Your thoughts. Pipeliner

This is very confusing. I read this part of your query several times, and seriously have no idea just what you offered the seller.

Was he asking $6000, and you offered $5000? Were you saying that wood and a restock would cost $5000, and would result in a gun with zero collector value? Were you asking him to include wood and a restock, or were you trying to say you offered less because it would need those things? I'm not sure what you were saying about the engraving. Please translate.

There are all levels of collector value. A well heeled, advanced, and highly selective collector will only want to buy the best guns in the best original condition. Other collectors will buy or consider a lower condition gun that has been repaired or restocked. An excellent restock is likely going to be worth more than a gun with a trashed original stock. The difference is realizing that valuations will be vastly different between a high condition original gun, and anything less.

Without photos and a better description of the gun and your offer, it just isn't possible to know whether either the asking price or the offer was fair. Any opinion of value given without adequate information and good photos is pretty much worthless. Even pics may not reveal major defects. But when a seller shuts down during negotiations, that's generally a good sign that a sale is not going to happen.

I have not paid retail for a gun since I was in college. Actually, it was a below retail dealer price on a new Colt revolver. As Stan says, there are lots of fish in the sea. An intelligent gun buyer has to become educated on evaluating condition factors, scarcity, demand, and market conditions. People who are too lazy to do those things are the guys who tell us that they simply expect to lose money on every gun purchase they make. Gun Dealers absolutely love these guys. They are the same people who have Car Dealers doing High-Fives in the back room after a customer comes in and pays factory sticker price. Actual costs of repairs is another factor. I do most all of my own repairs, but must remember that my time is worth something too. And it helps to own enough guns that you can be the one who walks away from any deal, and never feel compelled to buy out of desperation.
14 575 Read More
DoubleGun BBS @ Jump to new posts
Re: A Cameleopard from E. M. Reilly Argo44 12/07/22 08:19 PM
I blew it up and played with the contrast and tried to sharpen the image as much as possible. It looks like 813....clearly to these eyes it's an 8 and that would make more sense as a patent use number.

[Linked Image from]

I went down the rabbit-hole pursuing patent use numbers hoping to find 1 maker who was reasonably consistent.

The 1860 Henry patent 2802 - 7 groove shallow rifling seemed to have the most promise and for the first 5 years or so seemed to be chronological. However when A&T started providing patent use numbers it went haywire.

I tried to get Purdey to tell me if they had records on 1863 J. Purdey patent no. 1104 - “double bite” under action bolt....Reilly regularly used that patent up to 1877. Purdey said their records are literally locked up and they cannot access them. So indeed they can't be used to date a gun....unless it is only to identify the last gun before or the first gun after the expiration of the patent in which case it can help with dating.

In my dating chart the last Reilly with a 1104 use number is:
20623 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and Rue Scribe, Paris. 12 bore. Shotgun SxS. U-L, rebounding hammer gun. (Purdey patent 1104 use #3928)
My chart dates that gun to spring 1877 (getting pedantic - possibly late April)...which is certainly a sanity check on the validity of the Reilly Serial Number dating chart since the Purdey patent expired 04 May 1877.

And here are the questions that have never been adequately answered about Patent use numbers:

-- If the owner of a patent made a gun using that same patent, was a patent use number stamped on that gun? For instance are these Greener patent use numbers stamped on Greener made and marketed guns; or are they only used for others who purchase rights to purchase the components or build them under license?

-- If a gun maker built a gun under license using others' patents, assume he paid for the patent use number. And the corollary, how would one know if that gun maker actually made the component himself, or purchased it in the white from the original patent holder?

-- If a gun maker created a gun in the white using patents that were not his - for instance if Scott made a gun in the white for Holland & Holland, but used others' patents (Purdy 1104 for example), who paid for the patent use number and where was it recorded? Scott who built the gun or H&H who finished it?

In the case of this gun apparently it was finished by Reilly but built by Greener (in the white? - probably - because Reilly didn't serial number guns he didn't build; he did serial number guns he finished as did H&H etc.).

Owners of an actual Greener built by Greener and marketed by Greener at this time might note if there is a "G.N.PAT" with a use number stamped on their Greener factory guns. That would at least tell you whether Greener authorized Reilly to build it or sold the components intact.

(813 authorized over say 8 years is not an inconsequential number - 100 a year - so perhaps Greener did put patent-use-numbers on his own guns because Reilly and others were clearly not selling a lot of them).

But one suspects that every firm had its own practices and nothing was industry wide.
37 2,567 Read More
DIY Gunsmithing @ Jump to new posts
Re: Non ejector to ejector barrel 16 ga. David Williamson 12/07/22 06:21 PM
I've worked on a Bridgeport for many years and yes that would be the right choice except it would not fit into my basement as to height. A few years ago I was thinking of buying a small mill from Grizzly but now I do not do as much as I used to. My shop is really set up for woodworking, but I do have a small Grizzly metal lathe that lets me make small projects. On my 20" drill press I bought a XY table and made a barrel wall thickness gage like the one that Glazan had. There are two rods one for 10-12 ga and the other for 16 ga., and I can get repeatable readings taking the barrels off and back on. As shown in the picture I can reach 16" into the barrel from breech up, but on a tight choke 12 ga. the muzzle end will not fit over the rod. (5/8" rod.625 plus half diameter of ball .0625

[Linked Image from]
[Linked Image from]
4 137 Read More
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