doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Who REALLY built most of the English guns.....

Joe, I think you can find examples of every possible level of making in the trade. There seems to have been a few more or less common sources for action forgings and barrel blanks. From that point on, there were any number of routes from blank to finished gun. Parts and services seem to have been bought, sold, traded, bartered, and likely stolen. The companies and individuals did whatever they could in a constantly shifting fickle market to make a quid. For example, Jack Asbury seems to have confined himself to machining. Holloway & Naughton were makers - no doubt about it - as Thomas Naughton was known as a Master of formidable talent. My H&N BLE is clearly marked as an Asbury machining and it has Westley Richards ejectors and W. R. Lard patent single trigger. Was it built in-house? Yes, but H&N shopped-out as they needed to or got a good deal on. Other than some few factories that had most skill on-staff, I think the above fits a lot of guns.

There is no simple, sharply focused understanding of the Brit gun trade. Matter of fact, that is part of its glory.

Rabbit, as much as anyone I guess?
No one loves the stories of the brought in gun more than here.
Tales of B'ham connections, and spirited whole guns to London in the dark of night.
It could be this, but as you can see, some want to distance themselves from this working city.
A William Evans owner will do all he can to point out London on his trade label.

Spot on, Old Bean-Nibbler. C&H made whatever could be sold, and the Mooregreys I mentioned above were certainly bottom-feeder SxSs. And bike parts and lawn games and ammo and books and you name it (I used to have a C&H-labeled fore-and-aft cap!). Unfortunately, their entrepreneurial diversity distracts gun people from the fact that over many years, Cogswell & Harrison made some very fine bespoke guns in London, including 'Bests.'

How could Holland & Holland build their own guns prior to the 1890's, they didn't even have a factory before then. I have Cogswell & Harrison's book and I'll check to see but I believe they were a maker of best guns for other firms. My custom rifle, triggers by L&R, lock by Chambers, barrel by Rice, assembled by (?), its all the same today for custom high end rifles and shotguns isn't it??

I have a sxs 12 by Andrews who is said to have built double rifles for some of the high end firms. I think someone posted on this board that a tiny "A" on the action is the only identifier.

Rocketman,good post, I do know that Asbury actually worked in H&N's workshop premises in Weaman street.Frank Wiseman worked in the same shop and eventually bought the company.Many (most) 2" 12's were actually made by H&N using forgings made and machined by Asbury (JA stamped on the actions if you look)many Westley bits and bobs were fashioned in the same shop and pushed across town in a hand cart.

These numbers are for Birmingham, 1897.



Take out those working on military arms (bayonet, bands, etc) and you have a relatively small number. In 1906 Liege produced 100 tons for export, 156,000 sxs barrels being part of that. The trade had already contracted in England. Liege experienced the contraction after WWI.

Pete

Thanks, salopian! That is some good information and puts a few more pieces of the puzzle in place. So, H&N has a line of machined actions coming from a guy who is good enough to be allowed to stamp them. Some they use and some they sell. They also have a contract with WR to make parts. When they get an order for a BLE with a single selective trigger, they have the parts on-hamd and only have to pay WR for the use. It is a tangled web, but we slowly take a knot out now and then.

We have to remember that history shows us that the Birmingham craftsmen lived with their families in tenements, lofts and attics above the the workshops.I can remember playing kick the can in the tenement yard whilst handcarts scurried by.We went to school and married other craftsmens daughters and talked about how trade and developments were at other factories.Frank Wiseman took his family to Scotland just after the WW2 so what did he bring back as regards knowledge about Dickson, McNaughton,Etc.,
When Webley were bombed out of their premises they carried on manufacture in a large tent pitched at Red House Park, Great Barr, many of the workers took parts home in the evening and weekends to assemble as they were paid piecework rates of pay.
Yes the fabric of the Birmingham guntrade is colourful, large and varied.
We haven't even started on the lock trade of Wolverhampton, Willenhall and Wednesbury yet.

A guns only as good as it's locks.