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Forums10
Topics39,493
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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
Member
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Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 433 |
Crossed chissels is right that many modern time-saving practices have changed the nature of some of the wrk inolved and reduced man-hours. I think this has implications for the rpair of odd models from old 'non-standard' guns in the future. Old gunmakers can make parts from scratch - soem of those skills are being reduced and may be lost.
However, reading this thread you would think London gumaking has vanished and that the big firms are selling foriegn made junk as 'best' London output
Perhaps some wish it to be so - out of whateever devilment and petty jealousy that may drive them but there is NO evidence that this is so. In fact it is not so.
British gunmakers are still producing better guns than any other gunmakers if a well-made, well designed and superlative quality gun make from the best materials available is what you want. You pay accordingly.
So Asprey or William Evans may have had a gun action filed up by Gary Hibbert, barreled by Bill Blacker and stocked by David Becker (all time-served London trained gunsmiths of the highest order) - that is not an indication that they would as happily have it done by Hoo-Flung Dung in Beijing!
Some London firms are offering cheaper grade guns in the £20,000 - £30,000 range in the same way that they offered Birmingham made and london finished 'B' 'C' and 'D' grade guns in the past. These are not made entirely in-house and that keeps costs down - and sale price lower.
The latter is a risky strategy because the lazy minded or trouble-making bore will suggest that because a cheaper gun is offered, then all their 'best' output is tainted. It is not so but you can't stop the gossip.
The London gun trade goes on much as before and you stll get a better gun out of London than out of anywhere else. I know Italian stuff looks nice but they are still pretty immitations of Lndon work and they do not 'shoot' as well, nor do the shapes (ofthe stocks in particular)work so well.
One plus one does not equal five and the fact that some London makers put some of their work out to the London trade does not mean that suddenly London gunmaking has fallen to bits and everyting is now made from cheese in Turkey! Rant over.
Dig: Excellent! Outside of the UK, and especially on this side of the pond, there is an "attitude" in some quarters toward British guns, and there always has been. You put your finger on it with your comment "Perhaps some wish it to be so - out of whatever devilment or petty jealousy may drive them". The bottom line is, for such folks, conspiracy theories are simply more important than the truth, because they're what they really crave to believe. The conspiracy theories become reality to them and, to protect their coveted fairy tale, facts must be relegated to the status of "hearsay". You're right, of course, but you're wasting your breath.
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,698 Likes: 46
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,698 Likes: 46 |
Well said Dig & Nitro.
Without doubt in my mind British is very definately Best.
I would beg to differ with Dig on one point though,anyone would be very hard pushed to find better turned out work than a current 'best' Greener,AA Brown or McKay Brown, therefore London is not the epicentre of 'Best' in my opinion.When you consider the manufacturing processes and businesses could I suggest Birmingham? But of course I am very biased.
As for the Gazette article the labour hour charge of 700 hours I believe refers to the cumulative time spent by the various artisans involved in the different manufacturing processes.
Multiply 700 times the hourly rate of getting your car repaired and you may have a shock.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203 |
Just read "21st century gunmakers....." in The Shooting Gazette October 2004 issue.  Any chance you can scan and email me a copy of the article? Don't know anyone with a copies SG and can't find a copy of the article on line.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203 |
As for the Gazette article the labour hour charge of 700 hours I believe refers to the cumulative time spent by the various artisans involved in the different manufacturing processes. Multiply 700 times the hourly rate of getting your car repaired and you may have a shock. I believe Jagermeister noted the article stated that was time spent on an H&H 'Royal' SLE. If the auto dealer's rate is $40, $50, $60, or even $70/hour, that would translate to being able to buy a brand new H&H Royal SLE for $28K, $35K, $42K or even $49K. Can anyone do that? It would be interesting to translate the difference in multiples between customer paid price and professional worker's paid wages in these two industries that were brought up for comparison purposes.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 322
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 322 |
As for the Gazette article the labour hour charge of 700 hours I believe refers to the cumulative time spent by the various artisans involved in the different manufacturing processes. Multiply 700 times the hourly rate of getting your car repaired and you may have a shock. I believe Jagermeister noted the article stated that was time spent on an H&H 'Royal' SLE. If the auto dealer's rate is $40, $50, $60, or even $70/hour, that would translate to being able to buy a brand new H&H Royal SLE for $28K, $35K, $42K or even $49K. Can anyone do that? It would be interesting to translate the difference in multiples between customer paid price and professional worker's paid wages in these two industries that were brought up for comparison purposes. Dave: I don't know where you live but most auto dealers charge $100 to $150 per hour for repair work. Where I live the fellows at the corner garage charge $75 to $100.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203 |
I don't know where you live but most auto dealers charge $100 to $150 per hour for repair work. Western, New York near Buffalo. I am sure that we would be cheaper than Chicago but honestly I just don't pay any attention anymore to the hourly rates posted on the wall (probably so I don't get upset), so I am most likely just totally out of touch with reality in actual mechanic rates. I did just have some mechanical work done at the GMC dealer on my van a month ago, so I dug out that bill but they did it such that I can't identify the hourly labor rate from it. But they did also attach an estimate for some body work I asked them to get for me from their body shop, and both body labor and paint labor was quoted at $42/hour, which means we must be getting a bargain here. Nevertheless if you pay $100-$150 per hour there for mechanics that makes that new Royal now $70K-$105K, so his comparison was accurate at those rates.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 322
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 322 |
[/quote] But they did also attach an estimate for some body work I asked them to get for me from their body shop, and both body labor and paint labor was quoted at $42/hour, which means we must be getting a bargain here. /quote]
How is your grouse hunting and real estate taxes, maybe I need to move East.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 465
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 465 |
Stone the crows, gentlemen,
Cost of goods ain't just cost of labour. There's cost of materials (e.g. have you looked at the costs of really good wood recently), overhead loading (e.g. the smiling gent in a suit who minds the shop and takes your order, but doesn't work on the bench), bricks and mortar (you did say you wanted work done in a London factory. Someone has to keep the roof from leaking on the parts boxes), cost of capital tied up in all the above (just take a look at the wood inventories at some of the makers to say nothing of labour paid before goods are sold),taxes and fees, insurance and all manner of other things specific to the industry. I've run companies where we targetted G&A-which includes all salaries-of 16% of selling price and others in which that climbed to 40. I've never worked in a sector where the number went over 50% unless we were heading for bankruptcy, although there are undoubtedly some. If you want to estimate just how much Purdey's pays to Richemont each time you buy a gun, it's a lot longer calculation than just 700 times an average bench rate. However, if they were making truly exhorbitant profits, they probably wouldn't have been acquired, or would have been acquired at a big enough premium to make the news, in which case, everyone would be buying a gunmaker and we'd be seeing gunmaker-based funds.
Last edited by leo toralballa; 05/01/08 06:56 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,250
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,250 |
There has always been a certain segment of this crowd who will pick a bone with an English gun - don't you know.
Any ideas?
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 203 |
There has always been a certain segment of this crowd who will pick a bone with an English gun - don't you know. Any ideas? Lowell, I don't think it is the English gun at all, I think a much too large segment of members from all gun forums can't resist speaking from their personal emotions rather than facts no matter what the topic. Washington politics has nothing on gun owner politics. Hard to believe that after almost 90 posts there have been but few actual answers with just facts provided to the original question "Can any one provide more information on which gun makers are operating from the "trade", local or foreign?" O.K., so it's not hard to believe at all. I personally like English guns for what they are, and other lesser guns for what they represent as well. But when a significant number of the initial responses to the question are immediate defenses rather than any factual answers first, my first thought was that there is more than meets the eye involved in this topic. Who knows, maybe people just like beating each other up on gun topics as much as they do in political discussions. Maybe even more so since inherently the gun is an aggressive instrument that is bound to attract a higher percentage of aggressive orieneted owners. I'd better head for some solid cover after that last statement.
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