doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "Not In-House" British gunmakers.

I do not garner the same conclusions as EJ writes based on what was posted. In fact, I would say that I know of no firm that has done no sourcing to out-workers even in modern times.

Maybe the real question is why it is just not transparent by the big British/English makers (brands) themselves?

We all seem to agree that:

1) Just about every manufacturer has done outsourcing for hundreds of years, reasons including he/they don't have all the manufacturing capability in house, someone on the outside can do that part/job better, or that it is cheaper and/or more convenient to do so, or that it was simply their business model to do so (never being their intent to be an in-house manufacturer from their very business start).

2) Where the components are made is irrelevant, what is relevent is their quality and thus the overall quality of the final product(buy the gun and not the name).

Now that being given, and that great English marques are typically at the very top of the pricing structure of their respective arms offerings, it seems that it should in theory be a very simple exercise to answer the original question with immediate hard facts known by all who own or have interest in this segment of the business.

Now I am not saying that brand X has to make it publically known that their triggers are made by Mr. Y in village Z. But it would seem to be to their advantage to state that their barrels are specially made for them in Spain in a proprietary composition to their specifications by who they reagard as one of the best barrel makers.

Many top marques in other industries do it this way and use it as a way to let the potential customer know just why it costs so much because they are using the very best source of each major component, including their own factory in areas where no one can do it as well as them (at least in their own advertising hype and/or belief).

But apparantly for whatever reasons the definitive knowledge to easily answer the original question is not readily available. And I think the original question took into account that no maker would do 100% in-house. It was more the question as to which of the marques are essentially just assemblers, or even not even that, maybe just marketers of essentially complete guns made for them.

But then I am not intimately involved in this area so maybe this knowledge is more common than it appears from this thread.

Salopian,

talking about reading threads, my questions had been all the time regarding to current affais, not from the past (As to historical research, BTW, I earned my D.Phil working in British archives on a subject rather more complex than sporting guns). I certainly know that W. Evans made most of his early money selling Webley Scott guns as I duly quoted at the beginnig (a good review in DGJ Index II, pp. 137-141). What I would expect from close observers of the British trade had been more phrases begining with "To the best of my knowlegde...." or "As regrads to so and so, I don´t know or I do know this....".

After following several thorough analyses on British auctions, reading versed books on the current affairs of the British 2nd hand market and seeing threads of strange events in the London Proof House, it strikes me that the same sources have rather little information on current outsourcing. On the other hand,for example, somebody from this side of the pond saying that "I have spoken to many" is circumstantial at best and does not help to build collective real knowledge.

Rocketman,

I don´t think that London is the only place to find skills for high end guns, Val Trompia, Liege and Ferlach are good current examples that this is not a monopoly. The London style is today a shared heritage, in my view. Even the Basques with a little more imagination and originality could become part of this category in time.

Montana,

I would agree in full with you as long as you can help us with hard facts. My conclusions came from what was printed.

But probably not as you think they do.



No, it isn't.



Show me where I said otherwise.



One more time, if certain parts or work is sourced outside the country, it isn't a secret, and hasn't been for a long time. If you don't know, all you have to do is ask them.

Powell isn't London. At Jeffery, ask Paul Roberts or John Resteghini. I have, and they're happy to discuss it, and both have done so at considerable length with me. At Watson Brothers, ask Mike Louca, who I have also found quite forthcoming. You can always visit their workshop and see what they do in house for yourself. Likewise, I've never found Evans evasive in the slightest. When I asked about the possibility of replacing one of my Evans rifles, a screw grip, they said straightaway, without being asked, that the action would have to come from Italy (A & S Famars), because there was no longer any source for the screw grip action in the UK, which was true, and that the gun would then be built by their workers in the UK. If you talk to Evans and aren't sure you've gotten all the information you want, ask John Resteghini at Jeffery. He spent 14 years at William Evans.

None of the above have ever bought in a Spanish gun in the white, stocked and finished it, and sold it as British or best, or at a British best gun price. Your suggestion otherwise is your own invention, and is utterly baseless and not supportable. With the above firms, all you have to do is ask and, as long as you are not insulting about it, you couldn't ask for more transparency.

My responses to you have been neither unsolicited nor patronizing. You posted the question. As it is clear that you know little of the British trade, I thought it valuable to disabuse you of the notion that you professed to be concerned about. Your question is irrelevant because what you suggest isn't happening.



You are. I'm beginning to think that you just wanted to start a nasty rumour.



I did. You should read it more carefully.

I think it is even easier to understand current practices. Look at the firms' factories and staffing. Look at the firms supporting apprenticeship programs and one can intuit where the shortages of craftsmen are... By definition, this is the legacy of participation in two devastating world wars.

I have found most staff will be pleased to discuss what is to be done in their factory as well as how limited the number of guns they produce in any year might be. Also, if I want the engraving, choking, inlay, or whatnot done by a particular master, that can be arranged if it isn't already based on my tastes. Ultimately, the marque on the gun will be supported by the lengths to which the firm went to produce each particular piece to the highest standards.

400NitroExpress,

I see that trying to obtain veryfiable facts and using standard logic with you doesn´t help to get a better common knowledge and goes to a dead end. Nor it is of much aid when you provided, the first time, general testimonials. You say that you know a lot of the British trade, it may be true, another story is whether it helps to clarify the whole picture or to know more about you. BTW, I was not aiming at you when I mentioned the patronising attitude, if this help.

Montana and NE400,

I find that I am learning much from this thread even though it is coming in bits and pieces from a lot of replies.

I always thought that the reason that the great names produced such a limited number of guns each year was due to the fact that the majority of the work was done in house, and with so few people willing to go through the process of learning the trade as an occupation, that this was the core reason that each maker's output was so low.

If I am interpreting correctly that many more parts are outsourced than I had envisioned, and these outsourced suppliers specialize in a single, or few, parts or sub-assemblies, it would appear that lead times should not be as long as they are and that outputs should not be as low.

I can understand long lead times on guns with totally custom engraving. Does most output fall into this category as an explanation for this?

Or is the primary reason for the long lead times and small output primarily due to making the end product that much more desireable?

How many man-hours do you estimate go into a best sidelock in the serial process of production? All finishing, not just engraving, is done by hand at this level.

How many different operating variations of a 20 gauge sideplate might one English maker reasonably be expected to offer? Done in-house or sub-contracted? English or Turkish or Chinese wages?

Dave Malys,

somethimes one falls in the mistake of addressing the urgent and taking the important for granted. Sorry for not replying earlier to your comments. Your analysis of this morning and the previous days goes very much where I think a balanced, but thorough and reflective enquiry on the subject should rest. In my view you have cleverly see where the information gap lies and why is relevant to put the missing pieces of information on the table. I would like to see what the British members in the know can say about this.