doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "Not In-House" British gunmakers.

Salopian

Could you please elaborate

CJ

Bone charcoal.

A little history as I understand it. Back when, moneyed people were the ones shooting as guns, cartridges, colthing, and travel needed for shooting were expensive to cross your eyes. Oh, and that doesn't consider owning a place to shoot or the money to entertain socially to compensate for lack of a place to invite those who invited you to shoot. Guns were relatively new fangled and there was not a lot generally known about them. So, as noted above, the would-be shooter needed someone to advise him. That very person was called "your gunmaker." The shooter selected a gunmaker based on location, price, social circle, and, probably, harmony of personalities. The shooter then bought from the maker and the maker made sure that shooter was correctly fitted out and advised. Successful shooters were likely to be repeat customers so the maker had very good reason to do a good job.

Purdey's guns are made in London - this I know. Were I buying a new gun, the question would be to what standard it will be made. Steel and design patterns are global commodoties. Workmanship is getting to be that way. If Purdey's told me that the best lockmaker was in Turkey (right now I know that he isn't), I'd take their word for it. My impression is that if you are a real customer, Purdey's will spend all the time you care for in discussing and making sure you get what you want, within the realm of reasonability. If you simply say, "Gimme a gun," they will still do the best they can to get it right for you.

The last few % of quality are the expensive ones. This is true for all goods and services. The reliance on brand name/brand loyalty is a powerful market force. The making of a good name and the loss of a good name are triumph and tradgedy.

400NE, last I heard they are still eating their osso buco over there.


JC

Rocketman, thanks for that additional info, now it's starting to make some sense to me if I view them in that light, similar to a builder I might choose to have a house designed and built for me.

Jaycee, is that what you are having for dinner tonight? If so, do you want to become buddies?

Dave, here is the finished result:

Whenever you are down here I'll cook some and we can share a bottle of Don Melchor with it.

JC
P.S.: Actually the photos come from here Osso Buco

Army & Navy, William Evans, and W. J. Jeffery unabashadly had their guns built in Birmingham. To some extent all, but especially Mr. Evans, had a reputation for fair, exacting dealings. Many shooters paid a little extra at the shop of Evans because it was well known that he knew the business, would advise you well, and would treat you fairly. While Evans didn't replicate Purdey's, from whence he came, he did start a very long term business that carries forward the reputation of old.

When you went to Evans, you discussed your shooting needs, had the blanks of knowledge filled in, got a gun you could afford on order, got shooting instruction as needed, and had a mentor to return to. Gun shops had a bit of a club function, as well as selling guns. Yes, Mr. Evans was your contractor and quality assurance department. And, when you were ready, you would naturally go to him for a gun upgrade and to sell your used gun. You got the very best of advise and he made money.

This thread started with a set of questions regarding which British gunmakers make their guns "in-house" and which are making them from the trade, whether local or international. In addition, a specific question asked confirmation or denial of evidence on makers using Spanish guns in-the-white.

What was possible to collect (from SmallBore) is that the main names (Purdey, H&H, Westley Richards, Mackay Brown) work in-house. Some few others, says the same source, like Greener, Churchill and Atkin, Grant and Lang, do some (local?) outsoursing when subject to high demand.

Upon a second request on what happens with a third group of companies like William Evans, William Powell, Jeffery, Asprey (now defunct), the were neither ayes nor nayes as regard to outsourcing. Mayby nowbody knows how they go about their business, being this a working hypothesis worth considering. According to Salopian William Powell buys Spanish frames for their low end models.

In addition we also obtained a series of unsolicited views on the irrelevance of knowing who was doing what and from where in the British gun industry, provided that it was either liked by the costumer or duly certified by the gun assembler. Aside from being of little help, these patronising comments inspire irony at best and cynism at worst.

And, 400NitroExpress comments to my statements cannot go unreplied:

1. Buyers of high end guns behave, specially international ones, as they do, not as you think they should.
2. Testimonials from out-workers stating they cannot reveal for whom they work in the London Gun Trade is hard evidence, buyers that cannot check the ultimate provenance of their prospective guns does matter to them always, what does have little weight is circumstatial evidence from one individual that passes as an insider.
3. Prices of best sxs guns from British gunmakers of the third group start at the following: William Powell €45.000; Jeffery €38.400; Watson Brothers €48.600; William Evans €47.350. My hypothetical case has a solid price base, is a matter of adding some few more specs and it reaches the €53.000 mark. If any of these companies were getting a Spanish shotgun in the white it could make the trick, most buyers will spend all their lives before realising the provenance of their guns. So, who is really kidding himself?
4. Next time read all the thread and go to the meat of it.

EJ,
May I respectfully request that is YOU that reads ALL the thread and then go to the meat of it.
I did not say that Powell buy Spanish frames, I said they buy Spanish guns in the white.You then include the group including Asprey,Evans, Jeffreys & William Powell as not being vouched for as suppliers of outsourced work.
Perhaps before you admonish 400NitroExpress you should do your own historical research, and use your time wisely.
Then you would know that Evans hardly ever made a thing apart from a profit.
I advised anyone early on what to do if they thought that profiteering was going on.This seems to me to be where you are really coming from.
Perhaps you should look closely at Bill Gates's Empire for outsourcing, that may help to salve your wound.

EJ - the modern consumer has well known choices as to how to approach a major gun purchase. There are something over 50 gun making names that are capable of getting out an arguably best gun. Their methods are international and they approach runs from strictily in-house to completely international. There is some variation in pricing, but a bespoke best gun costs a huge amount of money. If you want to be sure that you are getting a London made best gun, go to Purdey's/H&H/Boss. If you will accept a "Birmingham"/trade best gun, then Evans, Westley Richards, W. Richards, Greener, AG&L, Hellis, Bozard, AA Brown, McKay Brown, Boswell, etc. If you have some flexibility in style (but not in mechanical quality), try one of the several German, Italian, Belgian, French, or Austrian makers.

Are you thinking that London is the only place that has the skills necessary to get out a best gun? Or, are you thinking that the London style is still truly unique to London?