doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Correct patterning of a .410

tw, Thanks for the information, the barrels on my .410 Skeet-er are marked O&C which I believe means open and choke but I did have a 28 gauge Skeet-er that was marked i/c and i/c it was a single, non-selective trigger gun.
Pete

Remember, too, that the 25 yd definitional range for .410 patterns came about at a time when there were no shotcups. I don't know why we should be surprised to see greater pattern densities with modern ammo. After all, 12 ga Win full choke barrels often give almost 90% at 40 yds with best quality trap loads. Old WW catalogs suggest a mere 65 to 70%.

If you throw WW or RP 3" .410 shells through a full constriction at 25 yds you will likely do alot better than 70%. To be specific, I get an effective 20" circle at 40 yds with the RPs in #6 through my full choke M-42. By "effective" I mean something no phez could get through without 5 or more hits. At a more sensible 30 yds the WW load with #7.5 does the same on grouse/WC sized targets with this particular barrel.

That said, I prefer to use the mod choked guns in the field.

Sam

If you're a 410 shooter, you should checkout this site http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/index.html

I've been doing more and more hunting with a 410. I'm finding it can be a very effective upland gauge on wild quail and dove. And lately, I've used it to great satisfaction on a good number of pen raised pheasant and chukar.

BTW,
On a pheasant pharm recently, I recall one phez that got up on the far side of our 5 man line and flew thru a barrage of 12, 20, and 28ga tossed lead until my 410 with a 3" Federal #6 killed it at a fairly long distance with multiple vital hits from a modified choked barrel.

Does anyone remember an article in the American Rifleman (perhaps in the 60's or 70's) that compared patterns from skeet, IC, Mod and full chokes from M42's? I'm told that the article concluded that there was no significant difference in pattern performance from any of the the chokes. I asked the NRA, and they were unable to come up with the article, so perhaps I've got an urban legend on my hands.

FWIW, CSMC has two IJ Skeeters on their used gun list, one in .410 and one in 28 ga. The .410 is listed as F/M, and the the 28 is listed as M/F. They also have an IJ Hercules listed as F/F in .410.

I might be able to find the article if it could be narrowed down to a particular year.

A cylinder choked .410 barrel and 1/2 oz #9s will give about 2/10 patterns at 21 yds that have target sized holes in the exact center. You can make ink with a full choke M-42 on a 21 yd target. Skeet and mod are best for skeet. My mod choked '42 will give 25 yd patterns about like the full choke gun at 40.

That said, Remington skeet and mod barrels are more than close in constriction - they are factually identical except for the barrel choke stamping. If the barrel is going to a special field gun it gets a mod stamp, if it's going to a Wingmaster it may get the skeet stamp. Winchester skeet and mod chokes for pre-64s are also very, very close in constriction. I have never tested an IC choked '42.

Sam

I've not patterned the 410 much. But in the little qualitative patterning I've done, I saw that chokes did change the pattern diameter/density. Was it a "significant" difference? I suppose if the difference in effective area was quantified, it would be. But the visual differences may appear somewhat small because the overall size of the pattern is so small. At least this is my perception.

Up Front, I am simply not a .410 fan. One does read so much conflicting statements however.
"IF" a .410 is patterened to the same percentages in a 30" circle at 25yds as the other gauges are at 40yds, how can it have a "Smaller" pattern?? Has anyone done a central core % while patterening? I have always suspected a .410 has a high core thickening, surrounded by a large ineffective, crippling outer ring, but that may just be personal bias, as I don't own a .410 to actually check it out.

Miller,

I think you're assessment is accurate. I have done the core assessment. What I have found is that the .410 patterns are what you would expect from a load that contains two pellet populations. Each population seems to act normally (Gaussian), but the results end up looking as you describe. I am probably oversimplifying here, but there it is.

I believe this helps reconcile the apparent contradictions: that we can get good core density at 25 (mod) and 40 yds (full), yet see so few pellets in the outer rings.

Those who use a .410 with effect in the field are putting the core on the bird. Even so, I am also convinced that an effective 30 inch (not yds!) circle is largely unobtainium with any gauge and payloads of 1 oz or less.

Sam

Thanks to all, sorry to bring this up again but I still didn't have a satisfactory answer to the proper method of patterning a .410 gun.
I tried using a 30" circle at 25 yards but the results were useless because every pattern I shot would be a full choke, even though they were very ragged and uneven.
Jack O'Connor did say That the gun was patterned with a 30" circle at 25 yards, a few pages later He says that it should be 30 yards.
I think I finally found the answer, Don Zutz writing in " A Practical Approach to Patterning" says that the .410 is patterned using a 20" circle at 25 yards.
Pete