doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Another LC Smith Behemoth - Will it Digest Steel?

Bismuth would be great if a case of shells didn't cost more than the gun. I do load for my Boss 10 but I only shoot lead through that, or 20 ga loads with gauge mates. What I need here is a no-hassle duck killing machine, as we are expecting good things this season on OR. I used to have a Centaure but that one sold, so it seems the conclusion is to find a AYA or similar per the useful suggestions above.

I have yet to see any published PSI figures for steel shot. I very much doubt it's much higher than the typical 12000 psi lead load. The steel shot mfgs would not create that liability for themselves, there are plenty of guys out there shooting steel in modern and not-so-modern guns. In any case, standard min chamber wall is 80 thou and this gun is 400 thou. Even if damascus is half as strong as fluid steel, there is plenty of meat to compensate.

I do know that steel shot does not compress going through the chokes causing bulging and stretching at the start of the choke constriction, esp if tightly choked. However, 15 thou in a 10 ga is hardly any choke at all.

What I don't buy is that modern steel shells have tremendous recoil and will break a stock. They are actually quite mild due to the low shot mass and the plastic wad column. I don't think the powder charge is any heavier, although both shot and gases are going faster when they exit the muzzle.

The shot is fully encased in a thick plastic wad so there is no contact with the bores. Thus no scoring (another theory I have heard).

In any case, I think this Elsie will also be going back whence it came. It's not worth restoring, just a barrel pretty job (polish and rebrown) and a dash with the checkering tools will cost more than the gun will sell for even in today's market (seems 10s are still languishing in the market of the 80s).

I HAVE A PAIR OF SHORT TENS AND HAVE READ SHERMAN BELL'S ARTICLES UNTIL THEY ARE DOG-EARRED. I HAVE TAKEN SOME OF HIS LOAD RECOMMENDATIONS AND SHARED THEM WITH REPUBLIC CARTRIDGE COMPANY. THEY HAVE LOADED SHORT TENS FOR ME IN BOTH STEEL AND BISMUTH. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU GO THIS ROUTE....I ALSO SPECIFICALLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU DO NOT REPEAT DO NOT SHOOT MODERN TEN GAUGE SMOKELESS STEEL THRU YOUR OLD CANNON! LOOK FOR SHERMAN BELL'S ARTICLES IN DGJ.
TOM

I'd load the ol'Elssie up and let her rip...if she rips open you still have your Boss 10 to fall back on.
L.F.

friends:

I will try this again.

From ANSI/SAAMI Z299.2-1992, namely the current SAAMI Standard Pressures are as follows for 12g:

Max Average psi is 11,500 psi.

That is for shells loaded with lead shot, steel shot, bismuth shot, tin shot, plastic shot, slugs, and moose manure.

It is for 2-3/4", and 3".

So - unless you have a 3-1/2"12g , the magic number is now has been, and forever will be, 11,500 psi.

11,500 psi may be hard on older guns. It is downright foolish to use standard American shells in older damascus guns. Others may disagree. They simply were not designed for it. Will they blow up? Not likely. But they may bend and stretch and wear pretty bad, and then you merely have a piece of junk, rather than an old shotgun.

Steel shot is great in a Model 870. When the shot scores the barrel, you throw the barrel away and buy a new barrel. LC Smith barrels are hard to find.

Steel shot is a crappy projectile. So the makers load bigger pellets, to get the mass up. Then, they need more pellets to get the same number of pellets in the pattern. This leads to LONG shot columns. Since the pellets are now bigger, but still not "massy", they need to be boosted at teeth rattling velocities, beacsue they are big, and consequently have a good deal of drag, so that at 40 yards they retain some killing power.

The calculations are simple, and I have presented them before - the reason steel loads seem to kick the snot out of you is that, well, they kick the snot out of you.

Use Bismith. 7 pounds costs about 90 bucks including shipping. Thats $1.10 a shot for a 1-3/8 oz waterfowl load ( you may find that 1-1/4 oz kills just as well). For a day of ducking with 8 birds bagged, and say 16 shots taken, thats only $17.60. You paid more than that when you fueled the Ford Expedition for the trip to the water.

Spend your money on what you wish, but if you use bismuth shot, there are lots more things you can economize upon.

End soapbox speech.

Regards

GKT

Last time I went duck hunting with Keith Kearcher, he used a damascus Parker and he was shooting steel. Now Keith knows a thing or two about damascus bbls. This gun did not have tight chokes.

Back to my original question, IS THERE ANY SCIENTIFIC DATA or even empirical evidence that steel shot will ruin a set of damascus bbls with light chokes? Any gauge, I don't care. If so, what is the mechanism? Greg up above has confirmed what I thought about pressures...commercial steel ammo is loaded to the same pressure as lead. And the DGJ study showed that even the humble Parker damascus was able to digest huge overloads. As far as scoring, I don't buy that, the plastic shot cups are very tough and contain the steel. As far as recoil, I have shot this stuff through my Centaure and it doesn't seem to kick any harder than a 12 with lead shot.

Or is this whole thing just a commercial ploy on the part of gun makers to get us to all go out and buy modern shotguns?

We are not talking about some dainty English gun here that has been bored out and restruck five times. It has 3" chambers and .400 chamber walls.

We await the results from your testing.
L.F.


Ps..Grt I agree with you 100 %
How's the moose manure pattern ?

For whatever this is worth, some years ago when my ignorance equated to bliss; I took an early A Grade Fox (no original finish and with rough bored, but a solid lock-up), had the chambers lengthened to 3" and the chokes opened to improved cylinder for the specific purpose of using the gun as my "water-fowler". At that time, steel for ducks was the only option; so I purchased the heaviest 3" steel loads I could buy (which I recall were 1 3/8 oz loads), and headed to the swamps. Like everyone else, I had read that steel shot would score grooves in the barrels; but, with rough bores anyway, I could care less. I was also ignorant as to chamber pressures generated by steel loads at the time; but those using such shells during these early days with steel will recall that all the hype concerned bore damage from the hard steel shot; there was no press on pressures these shells generated, nor did ANY maker post pressures on any of their shell boxes at that time. The bottom line was that that the steel shot in those shells was so well protected by an extra thick wad there was never any visible additional damage observed to the bores of the old Fox. Further, I was amazed that there seemed to be so little recoil from those loads; it was if I were shooting skeet loads. That said, I've never tried steel in Damascus barrels and don't intend to; further, I don't recommend anyone duplicate my experiment with the Fox or any other vintage gun. And by the way, many of those old 10 pound, 10-bore Smith guns were used for target and live-bird shooting. I am working on an aritcle at this moment about just such a 10-bore Smith gun that, among other feats, was used to win a B Grade Parker hammerless (the grand prize) in a large 1893 Ohio competition.

DGHQ, I have reloaded steel for both 12 and 10 ga. for a number of years.I do this in order to keep the pressures at approx. 8000 psi.so they can be used in several of my older doubles,some with damascus barrels.I load 1 oz. loads in 2 3/4" 12ga. and 1 3/8 oz. loads in 3 1/2"10 ga. The velocities are in the 1400 ft/sec. range. The max. size I load in 12 ga. are #2's and in the 10's #1's. I have shot several hundred rounds through a Scott 12 ga.SLE circa 1890 with damascus barrels and 15 and 20 thou of choke. These loads are deadly to 40 yds and there has been no scoring of barrels or any visible or measurable bulging of choke. I have shot a similar number of rounds through a heavy Greener single 10 with a 38 1/2" barrel and 20 thou of choke and observe the same result.I have also observed the demise of several dozen snow geese and a few Canadas at ranges to 50 plus yds. I would not shoot factory loads through these guns because of the excessive pressure,nor use steel in guns with more than 20 thou of choke,nor use the larger sizes of steel,ie. BB and up.plus I would recommend long forcing cones when shooting steel. BTW, the Scott SLE is 2 3/4" recent nitro re-proof and the Greener has a massive action and serious barrel wall etc.I'm not suggesting you do what I do, just relating my experiences in this area.which I believe is the info you were inquiring about.

TL...You should share your 8000 psi, 1400 feet for second load with us.
It's ashamed to see these old guns modified and abused. I guess I'll live out the rest of my life in 'ignorant bliss' because I'll never put steel shot through a Damascus tube...I don't care who says it's okay.
L.F.

With Mod choke or less and paying attention to 'stacking of shot' ie using shot size 2s, 1s, or smaller I would expect zero damage using high quality US-made ammo in your gigantisch LCS.