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Forums10
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 80
Junior Member
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OP
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 80 |
There may be good reasons to do this in Europe, say from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4". The gun can be reproofed and the owner will have a wider choice of cartridges. It becomes a whole nother story when that gun comes to the US. I like sixteens and light twelves but I won't even look at one that has had it's chambers deepened. The reason, I have no way of knowing how many standard SAMI loads it has fired. If the chambers have been deepened in this country without reproof it's even more suspect in my eyes. Without doing a barrel profile you just don't know what the story is. Of course theres also the issue of European guns with original 2 3/4" chambers proofed to CIP standards. Again, how many thousands of SAMI rounds have gone thru 'em? But at least in this case one is fairly safe in thinking that there's enough metal at the chamber's end. It's not that I care inordinately about my fingers, it's just that no matter how you cut it, removing metal from the chamber will weaken the barrel. npm
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Amen! Have you noticed that an expectedly reputable dealer will always sort of mention the 3" chambers on a vintage gun in passing. Up to the end "emptor" to sort them out.
jack
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350 |
Silly me, I was shooting everything but magnums in my guns, including twist, before I heard of chamber lengthening and Sherman Bell. Now---same thing: 2 3/4 in 2 5/8 chambers etc. except that I keep pressures around 7,000psi.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,392 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,392 Likes: 107 |
After Savage bought Fox, guns with short chambers returned to the factory for any kind of work were supposedly automatically lengthened to 2 3/4".
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,778 Likes: 760
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,778 Likes: 760 |
I 'gotta play devil's advocate here, Nial. Since, there aren't thousands of blowed up doubles, damascus or steel, English, European, or good old Yank, and the ones that do appear ALWAYS show absolute signs of obstruction, what are we to conclude?
I had a MacNaughton 12, built back before accurate records were kept, lengthened in the chambers and chokes let out, followed by standard 850 BAR reprooof in Birmingham. This was the third trip through a proofhouse for the old girl by the way, it carried previous London and Birmingham proof. Since the gun had been built as an 13 gauge, and measured 12 when it went for the third trip, assume a generous hone took place as well, just not by my 'smith.
Dangerous? Hardly. A non event, if truth be known. I used it for years. Didn't pay too much attention to the ammunition used, if further truth be known.
My lone Darne is out of French proof for a bunch of reasons-pimple bulges, chokes let out, backbore as well. Oddly, chamber length was always 70 on this gun. But, the thin spot in these tubes is .060 wall thickness, and per the manufacturers suggestion, I just shoot the thing. They advised plain old American hunting loads, a bit more pressure being a good thing in an overbore gun.
Those guys laughed at me when I suggested reproof.
Hey, if I come across the right proofhouse veteran, wearing 2 1/2 marks, but, exhibiting longer chambers, I'll cry about what a damn shame it is to the dealer, and see how much the price plunges. If I find the price acceptable, I'll cry some more to see if I can get the Larry Brown discount, as well.
And then I'll walk away with it. No dead bird has ever come back to haunt me about chamber length. Best, Ted
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 79
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 79 |
It is true to shoot a 2 3/4 paper shells instead of a 2 1/2 paper shells build up extra pressure. But if someone shoot 2 3/4 plastic shells, it is much thinner than paper and it does not build up as much pressure as paper shells. It is why some have been shooting plastic 2 3/4 without noticeable kicking. But light load should be used. In the old day, the 65 mm was around 6000 6500 psi, the modern 2 3/4 are about 11000 13000. That is enough to ruin some old guns. It is close to the proof load too.
g gournet
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,355 Likes: 395
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,355 Likes: 395 |
I'm no expert on this but I have read enough in the past two years to make me cry about all the great deals I passed up on Damascus guns. From what I gather, SAAMI U.S. factory loads are lower pressure than Nitro proof loads and if either did not exceed the yield strength of the barrels, no damage has been done to them. Nor is it likely. Now that does not mean the gun has not been stressed beyond its' design limits, and it may be off face because the frame is sprung or the locking surfaces are pounded. Perhaps the wood is beginning to crack at the head. But unless the barrels deteriorate due to pitting or physical damage, the same loads are unlikely to blow them. So if the gun with lengthened chambers passed European proof, came to the U.S. and had SAAMI loads fired through it, and is still tight and undamaged with lever right, I see no reason to pass on it. Some of us don't even know what has been fired in our own guns. I have a friend who routinely fired 3" mags in his fathers' Ithaca Flues 2-3/4" 20 ga. and still has eyes and fingers. Another friend accidently fired 3" heavy turkey loads in his twist bbl. H Lefever with no problem. I once bought a grade 2 L.C. Smith at a poorly lit gun show and swore it was fluid steel. Got home and inspected it in sunlight and then fired some max. dram equiv. shells. No problem. A second closer look under the forend showed it was reblued Damascus. Of course, I fired no more factory loads in it, but I'm sure those couple shots did no harm. Any of these guns may have been ruined if fired with low pressure loads with a plug of snow or a stuck wad in the bbls. And the gun you yourself accept just because the chambers are unaltered may have been similarly abused. European shooters also have access to 3" shells and some are also fools. Just inspect your gun carefully before you plunk down your money. I lost a few bucks on the L.C. because I stripped the reblue and blacked it to show the Damascus pattern. But at least I can sleep knowing I didn't potentially blind someone.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4 |
In Denmark we have to use steel or bismuth shells because of lead ban. The shortest Eley bismuth shells are 67½ mm. Hence we get our old guns regulated to 70 mm chamberlenght, to decrease the chamberpressure. We do not use 70 mm or longer shells. The biggest store in Denmark (Hunters House) http://www.huntershouse.dk/kat183-Klassiske-våben/)decline to sell a gun with shorter chamberlength than 70 mm best regards
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,392 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,392 Likes: 107 |
Yikes, Joe! That gun has a modern British reproof for sure, but at 2 1/2" and 850 bars. If it's since been let out to 3"--I don't see that indicated on the barrel flats, nor do I see a reproof at 1200 bars, which is what would be required on a 3" gun. I'd steer clear of that one, other than as a wall-hanger.
What we sometimes miss is that current standard CIP service pressure is pretty close to the same as it was on American guns, before SAAMI (and the first "modern" shotshell load, the Super-X) came along in the 20's. So from a pressure standpoint, shooting modern American factory 2 3/4" loads in old American guns is as bad as shooting them in British/European guns. One difference, however, is that the old American guns tended to have thicker barrel walls. That's not always true, but it is generally true.
Ted, the best discount I've received is when you sent me your unused Cabela's bucks.
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