doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester Model 21

Jimmy, there is very little difference between a Custom Grade of the Custom Shop era and a #1 engraved round frame gun of the Custom Built era, maybe no difference at all. Another matter of confusion in identifying postwar guns without a Cody letter is the little known fact that, in the Custom Shop era, unengraved guns were not only available, they were catalogued for a very short period of time. I have a solicitation from the factory that offers an unengraved gun, identical to a Custom Grade except for the lack of engraving, for $7500, somewhat less than the Custom Grade of the time. A dealer's website has one of these offered for sale at this time. A rather scarce variation of our favorite Winchester.

FWIW, Cody letters can be quite inaccurate as I purchased an LC Smith grade 3 a few years ago and sent to Cody for a letter. When I received the letter from Cody All the info was correct with all matching serial numbers except the letter said my gun was a grade 2. Mine has grade 3 engraving and is marked grade 3 on the water table. I called Cody and they said that was how the gun was recorded in 1903. Some one in 1903 goofed so I guess the Cody letter does not mean much OR is more valuable?

I realize what you are saying eightbore. And also one has to keep in mind that patterns could be sent in that were different from the standard Winchester patterns in order to have the engraving pattern that the customer prefers. But if you look at the scroll work around the pheasants, the scroll has a double line on each curl. (Or whatever you call it) Any of the Winchester scroll only has one line on each curl. And I have never seen a Kusmit gun with the deep oak leaf pattern that are on the receiver. If it was done at Winchester, it looks like it would have been done out of house. I hate to run a guy's gun down, which I am not, but it just doesn't look like the standard Kusmit engraving to me. In some places it actually looks better than the Kusmits did. But that is just my opinion which probably doesn't mean much. Like I said, I would like to hear what Ken thinks.

I don't believe this work was done by either of the Kusmit boys. The English scroll smacks of some that I saw that was done by one of the Kusmits --- can't remember which one. I have received Win. guns that were returned to the custom shop for up grading ---- this wasn't unusual. They (Co.) even allowed my shop to alter the last 100 SuperX1 shotguns engraved. The pattern was the #5gold and I was allowed to change the scroll pattern so that it was denser & the tendrils were intwined. Sometimes it was refered to as the "Hurst improved #5" on work orders from custom shop with clients SuperX for upgrading.

In short, this could be an out of house engraving by a subcontracter or just another upgrade by private engraver. Ken

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I do think the oak leaf pattern on the recv'r breech areas was standard on the #6 pattern though. The later guns more deeply cut than the earlier ones, but different engravers cutting to their own styles of course.