doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com WW Greener Proofmark question

Hi Josh, BTW, welcome to the board, I think we have your lower gun figured out,it sure looks like a real Greener from that period with a later set of Belgian barrels. This practice was not that unusual as it is not a high end gun so the cost would have been considerably less getting it re-barrelled in Belgium rather than in Britian.

The Belgian barrels were done by Armaf:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20a/a%20armaf%20gb.htm
The date code seems to be for 1956 with Josef Charlier as the controller of proof.

The action appears to have the Greener touch mark. I doubt very much that anyone would risk the criminal proceedings involved with faking that mark, but I could be mistaken... These touch marks are copyrighted. There are heavy penalties for faking them, just as there are for the proof house marks. Not to say it did not happen.

I do question the basic assumption that all fakes come from Belgium. I have no doubt England produced it's fair share over the decades.

Pete

That safety certainly makes it look more authentic. And Terry, I can sort of make out something like crossed scepters. However, I'm not sure I'd bet on the elephant. That mark supposedly was a result of Charles Greener shooting an escaped circus elephant with one of their big bore rifles. None of my sources (I don't have the Greener book), however, gives a date for the incident. Boothroyd says "before World War I". Well, 1895 is certainly before WWI, but I'm wondering whether the elephant had been dispatched, and the mark adopted, at that early a date.

Hey Pete, I bet when times were slow at Purdey, they kept busy by making fake JABCs?

Many thanks for the welcome and information!!! For the record neither of those guns are mine. I'm in market for a Empire Grade and just finishing up my research and just needed some clirification. I hope to have some pictures of a "new" Greener of my own to share very soon!!!

With the 12-70 in a semi-oval or oval, would put the tubes after the June 23, 1924 rule revisions. I would say the 1st set of tubes would have been Damascus or twist(actually the Greener tubes probably would have been "laminated" steel barrels of 3 strips) and the Greener having a new set of tubes fitted in Belgium. Also the letters "BP" interlaced in a Cypher surmounted by a Crown(from memory I recall the provisional proof for a 12 bore being 12 3/4 drams of black powder behind a lead sphere 0.020 inches less than the bore diameter) which is above the crossed scepters(Ketland) mark ceased in 1904.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As posted by revdocdrew on Dec 02, 2007:

Indeed (and many thanks to David Trevallion for this document)




Pete

Larry,a little more "elephant info",Graham Greener in his book states that he is aware of the Charles Greener circus elephant story however he has seen Greener pinfire guns dating from the 1860's that have the mark and a trade label of the era from 1861-1874 that shows the elephant trade mark.Charles Greener was born in 1868.I will attach a pic of the action flats of a Greener single 10 I have which dates to 1886 and shows it clearly.
BTW, I'm going to use a Greener 12 HG tomorrow to shoot some sporting clays
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Thanks, Terry. The only Greeners I've owned have been much later guns. Looks as if the elephant story might be so much "bull".

In the "Greener Story" GG says that he was unable to corroborate the elephant tale, hinting that it is less bull and more BS.
K.