doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com More Sliding Breech Doubles

Ted, they do say it is also more "comfortable" to shoot them with less powder,
so I am sure you are spot on. :-)

JC

Ted.

Thank you very much
geoffroy

Tim,
That catalog is quite similar to the 1930s Etienne Jallas & Cie catalog. They sure didn't change much, the layout and format is almost identicle.

The blued R copy with the rectangle on the barrels was, if I am not mistaken, a Mouthier gun. The guns are usually marked with whoever was running the show on the flats, as well as F. Darne.

Couldn't help but notice the pleasant exchange of information in this post-thanks, you guys.
Best,
Ted

Ted, Stoeger must've picked up Darne some time after 1961. I have the Shooter's Bible from that year--Bernardellis, Sauers, V. Sarasqueta, but no Darnes. (They also show a high dollar SKB, and that was a few years before Ithaca started bringing them in.)

It certainly is nice to have a discussion of French doubles sans acrimony.

Ted certainly is one of the more knowledgable individuals about Darnes and I value his knowledge and opinions but my experience with the Stoeger era Darnes is not that bad. I purchased my first an R10 12 gauge 65cm in 1974. It was a well made shotgun, functioned superbly and except for the quality of wood of which I learned to appreciate 20 years later, a great gun. As the years past I eventually acquired a 20 gauge R10 which was a virtual match to the 12 gauge R10 except it had a butt plate instead of recoil pad. It was not marked as to importer. In the intervening years i looked at and personally handled every Darne I came across. Many were European guns evidenced by 16 gauge and sling swivels, well used and not for me. I attempted to contact the Importer in Victoria Texas for years without any sucess wanting a higher grade gun. Eventually Ted's name came to me through this forum and Ted ordered me a 16 gauge R11 Bruchet/Darne. The wood work was excellent but frankly if I put the barrels from a Stoeger and the Bruchet upside down side by side, it was hard to discern and difference in the metal work. After all the years I eventually concluded the best Darne for me was a 12 gauge with pad. I then purchased an R15 12 gauge, Stoeger marked and except for the wood was almost as nice as the Bruchet and certainly better than many of the Victoria marked guns I had seen.
I mostly use the 16 gauge Bruchet Darne because of its unique double trigger that will fire the barrels sequentially with the front trigger. I would purchase a new 28 gauge 'Mono' but the EURO/$ prohibits me from doing so, the value just is not there.
I would not exclude a Stoeger era Darne from acquisition but as with any fine double, evaluate each example on its own merits.-Dick

Don White told me years ago he had been "fired" for not ordering enough guns, this after Firearms International "fired" Darne, for not being able to keep up with orders!

It's a dog eat dog world, no?

If one never looked at anything but R10s and R11s, it might not enter the discussion, but, the guns Stoeger brought in for keeping in stock, to sell through the catalog, were not built as well as the guns going to points in Europe. I've seen LOTS of Stoeger (and, Firearms Center guns) that just don't measure up to what would typically be in the used rack at Bruchet, or another dealer in France, that were roughly built in the same era. An R10 is usually pretty similar to another R10, no matter the era, but, the R15s and V19s produced in the 1960s-1970s for the US market will be, as a quick rule of thumb, not shining examples of good workmanship. They WILL work, but, the wood, engraving and overall finish will be inferior to a European gun.

I tried to stay away from Stoeger and Firearms Center marked guns when I was in the business. I still would.

The Lorren Thomas guns marked a return to pre-war quality, when Paul Bruchet returned as owner. The only caveat I would put out there on guns from this era, is watch the 20s and 28s-someone seemed to think all of them should have short, 25 inch tubes, and I handled a few that I can't imagine hitting a target with.

My 1946 vintage R10 is a beauty-but, it took a second try, by the Bruchet's, to get it that way. I'll go out on a limb, and guess that the wood is about the best you could find on an R10.

They don't usually look like that.

Larry, the lead time on production of those catalogs from the late 1950s-early 1960s might surprise you in this digital age. I'm not sure exactly when Stoeger got Darne, but, I'd bet they had guns in the warehouse before a catalog made mention of it.

They were pushing them, hard, by the 1964 catalog.
Best,
Ted

Ted, I know you're not a big Cabela's fan, but you might want to take a look at the pair of "hors serie" guns they have on their website. As they say in their description, you don't often see a pair of Darnes. Expect it'd take a pretty nimble loader to keep up with a pair of break-action ejector guns in a driven shoot.

Larry, I actually attended an evening engraving class at the institute in St. Etienne with Mr. Pitiot, who was retired at the time. He made me take a hammer and chisel to a steel plate and attempt a straight line because, "you never know who will be a master".

Guess, since I'm still freezing my butt off over here, he was unimpressed, eh?

While certainly beautiful, I will always be an R guy at heart, Larry-more like the gun they have listed as a "V15".

Cabelas should pay more attention to the description, and less to the price.

Best,
Ted

If I see something that's mismarked, I'll usually point it out to them. Of course they don't have the enormous collective wisdom of this BB when it comes to doubles!

What's your take on the price on that pair? I thought it probably wasn't too bad, but I also read your earlier comments about guns from different eras and importers, and I can't hazard a guess as to date of production on those guns. I saw they were marked 70MM, but I also saw the "non pour la balle" stamp. I've never been able to tie the latter to any specific time period on French guns. I don't think it's mentioned in anything I have on French proofmarks. Were it British, that would indicate a pretty old gun--but I'm guessing those are not that old.

They aren't old, Larry. "Non pour la balle" appears on French guns to this day-if, they are choked too tight for ball type slugs, in the opinion of the proof house.

I'm not a fan of Mr. Pitiot's bold game scene engraving. The cover gun on Drumming Stump catalogs shows a V22 that Mr. Pitiot did in a style that is best called, "fantasy floral", which, is much, much more to my tastes.

As to price, consider that I could have owned the above V22, in 12 gauge, with ivory buttplate and forend tip, in a case, for about 5 large-and I don't. Consequently, I am likely to be the last person to ask if,(what 22 or 23 large?) is a good price for a pair of guns which I don't like the action (V style) or engraving on.

I never got the concept of a matched pair of doubles, when there exists a speedfeed Browning A5, or an early model 12 that holds 7 rounds of 2 1/2" 20 gauge ammunition. The only possible reason to show up with a matched pair of Darnes at an English driven shoot is you know the Queen will be there, and, for some reason, you really feel the need to insult her, and her countryman.

I'm stunned when I see a price like that. But, I'm stunned that Vulcan ejector Parkers in 16 go for 3-4 large as well, and decent condition R10s get close to 2 large. Throw in the beating the dollar has taken the last several years, and my eyes glaze over, and I start thinking about having a beer.

Out of the loop, on price. That's me.
Best,
Ted