doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Chambers in an early Ithaca NID. loads for same???

Using two different methods, and making several passes with each, I measured the chamber lengths of an early 16 gauge Ithaca NID to be something between 2-5/8" and 2-11/16". Does that sound right? I know nothing about these guns, but would have expected either a much shorter chamber, or a full 2-3/4".

I'd like to try some light, low pressure loads in cut-down plastic shells, using felt and card wads for starters. My thought was to experiment with eight or ten rounds, loaded by hand with a ram if I can come up with a few sized hulls. I don't own a 16-gauge press.

Can anyone recommend such a load for 3/4 and 7/8 ounce shot? I've got mostly Hercules powders in stock and would prefer to use one of those. For the number of shells I will load, weighing individual charges will be no chore. Unless someone advises differently, I will plan on adjusting wad pressure with the old bathroom scale trick.

Can anyone tell me the safe operating (chamber) pressure for this gun? I believe the piece was manufactured in 1926, pointer lightly engraved on sides of receiver, cocking indicators.

Will be grateful for any advice and input.

I am not familiar with low pressure 16 ga loads, but I believe there is a website, http://www.16ga.com, dedicated entirely to 16 ga fans and loads. Since it sounds like you'll not be loading a lot of shells, I'd suggest you purchase some Magtec all brass shells (believe they are 2 1/2", even though the box may state a longer length) from http://www.Midway.usa, appropriate wads from Circlefly and have at it. These shells are easily loaded with simple tools made from some wood dowel and a nail or two. They will last forever and will not require resizing unless you shoot them in more than one gun. Good luck. Bill

Forgot to mention, the Ithaca NID (NOT NIG!) is a relatively modern design, and if in good condition, should be suitable to shoot most modern shotshells of the proper length, which is most likely 2 9/16". I would stay away from the heaviest loads, as the head of the stock (where the stock meets the receiver) on many older guns is the weak point, and a constant pounding with heavy loads may result in splits and/or cracks in the stock. Bill

Beginning with the first NID catalogue in 1926 they state -- "Unless otherwise ordered Ithaca .410 Cal. and 20 Gauge guns are chambered for the standard 2 1/2 inch shell, 16 Gauge for 2 9/16 inch, 12 Gauge for 2 3/4 inch and 10 Gauge for the standard 2 7/8 inch shell." The 28 gauge doesn't appear in NID period catalogues until 1932 though they did make some. Beginning with the 1927 catalogue the sentence is changed to -- "Unless otherwise ordered Ithaca .410 Cal. guns are chambered for the standard 2 1/2 inch shell, 16 Gauge for 2 9/16 inch, 20 and 12 Gauge for 2 3/4 inch and 10 Gauge for the standard 2 7/8 inch shell." Ithaca catalogues for 1926, 1927, 1927-1928, 1928, 1929, 1930, 1931-1932, 1932, No. 50F, and No. 51S, all list 16-gauge as 2 9/16-inch chambers. Beginning with the 1932 catalogue the 28-gauge with 2 7/8 inch chamber is added to the list and it also introduces the 3 1/2 inch Magnum Ten Gauge. By Ithaca catalogue No. 51F the 16-gauge is finally listed with 2 3/4-inch chambers and the 410-bore with 3-inch chambers. I believe the catalogues No. 51 equate to 1934.

Were 2-9/16" 16ga shells ever made? Does it follow that an NID 16ga with 2-9/16 will take a beating with modern 2-3/4 loads? I was under the impression that the NID was designed for modern loads. Mine is a 1937 gun with 2-3/4" chambers and I shoot whatever is handy.

Indeed, 2 9/16" 16ga shells WERE made. So were 2 5/8" 12's and 2 1/2" 20's--respectively the previous standard for all 3 gauges, before the switch was made to 2 3/4". In my 1940 Shooters Bible, which lists ammo offerings from all the American companies, I find a lot more 2 9/16" 16's than I do 2 3/4".

Not likely a NID, even with short chambers, would take much of a beating from current ammo. For one thing, most shells are slightly shorter than 2 3/4". So in an honest 2 9/16" chamber, you're likely to be shooting a shell that's not more than 1/8" too long. A strong gun like the NID probably wouldn't notice the difference, although you might feel some recoil reduction if you lengthened the chamber and forcing cone, or just the forcing cone.

My 16ga NID, made in 1936 by the serial number, has 2 3/4" chambers, and they do not appear to have been altered. I don't concern myself with what I shoot in that gun.

I suggest reading the warning on most every box of U.S. shotshells saying to shoot them only in modern guns that were originally chambered for 2 3/4 inch. Ithaca NID's are not modern and you don't really know about the length of the chambers. Better to follow the warning of the shell manufacturers than amateur opinions on the www. The RST brand shells are made in 2 1/2 inches and they are low pressure for guns like NID's.

For many years the 2 9/16 inch shell was the American standard 16-gauge load. When Western Cartridge Co. brought out their Super-X shell in 16-gauge, circa 1923, it was in a 2 9/16 inch hull, with a 1 1/8 ounce, 3 dram equiv. load. The advent of the 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shell coincides with Remington Arms Co., Inc. bringing out their Model 11 and Sportsman autoloaders in 16-gauge, around 1931, chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. The Remington Auto-Express 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shell carried the same 1 1/8 ounces of shot, but at 3 1/4 dram equiv.



Sometime after 1937 and by 1941 Winchester/Western added a 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shell to their Super-Speed/Super-X lines with the 3 1/4 dram equiv. 1 1/8 ounce load.

CB,
Your concern is noted. Such caution was the rule prior to actual test data becoming available not so long ago. There is now real test data on shooting 2 3/4" shells in a short (2 1/2") chamber. This issue was put to a test by Sherman Bell in an article series he writes. The test data was collected using laboratory pressure equipment such as ammo manufacturers use. The test yielded pressure differences from 0 increase to about 15% increase due to a true 2 1/2" steep forcing cone chamber. I also did a small scale test that didn't show significant pressure increases, using a straingage system.

But each person still should make their own choice on the issue with all the available information.

I just bought a NID grade 2 in 16gauge for 800 that I am sending back but I had not gotten to measuring the chambers but I will it is a 1927 vintage. Just curious if had been bored out.