doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sorry OT, Win. '97 Diamond

Love reading the reports on the Diamond Grade. How late into the 1900's were they made? I would have almost thought they would have stopped making graded '97's after the Mod. 12 came out. I would also assume, that like the Mod. 12 Trap, not all '97's were marked "trap" either. Of course I know there are probably as many made up Mod. 12 trap guns as there are Mod. '97's.

What do you suppose this one whould be??? It,s not marked "trap gun" anywhere, Is a 16 guage, and in the box it came in way back when. Have thought about getting it lettered and still might someday.
Kraft (And No, it aint for sale)

That appears to be a very nicely made imitation of a Trap Grade Model 97. What does the end label on the box say? Of course, anyone could special order any variation they wanted, but the pictured gun doesn't resemble any factory gun I have ever seen. Nice gun though. I have seen some very attractive late 97s with checkered standard grade wood.

Eightbore;
Don't know much about it except that it was my grandfathers ---- my grandmother ordered it for him for one of his birthdays --- how long ago I don't know. That was the story I got. He shot it practically not at all and it is "new". Could a "Black Diamond" be "ordered" in the later guns??? As far as the end of the carton,we will have to dig it out again and look. Thanks;
Kraft

I agree, Bill, something just doesn't look right. Very nice looking gun though.

I don't know about the Black Diamond Model 97s, but the Black Diamond Model 12s have a diamond stamped in the metal(at least many, or most of them do). It is located on the front of the barrel extension.

I remember discussing that situation a couple of years ago. I don't remember where we left off.

Bill, I don't remember either. The few that I have see did have the diamond stamp.
I did check a friends 20 gauge Black Diamond that has two barrels(both to the receiver). One had the diamond and one didn't.

On Kraft's 16 .. I think it is simply a 16 black diamond model 97, but obviously a special ordered gun. I say that because I owned for some years a solid rib 16ga. model 12 'SKEET' so marked with nickel steel bbl and 2&9/16" chamber, factory skeet choke and to die for wood. At another time I owned a solid rib model 42 'Trap' so marked w/2 & 1/2" chamber and full choke. We all know there was never an official 16 ga skeet event, but Winchester did make some very few model 12 16ga. 'skeet's anyway. We also know that there was never a .410 trap event, but it didn't keep them from making some 42 'trap's anyway, either. I have also seen other model 42 'trap's w/3" chambers, all were full choked and had fancy factory wood and checquering.

A nice 16 in a model 97 black diamond configuration would have had a lot of appeal to certain discerning sports. There were at least some folks who viewed 16's then as many view 20's today .. a dandy all round small bore cartridge.

And too 16's [ammo] were plentiful everywhere, until at least the late 1960's and model 97's could handle them all with impunity. Look at the old shotgun pics posted on another recent thread; the guys with new guns had 97's! In some ways, they played the same role to the older doubles as the Beretta 390's did to the 1100's on the Sporting Clays courses. A 97 was a very desirable gun to have and not everyone thought hammerless was an 'improvement';-) Some still don't.

What choke & bbl length does your grandfather's gun have, Kraft? Do you know what game he hunted? You have a very interesting heirloom, one you should be very proud of. To me, it speaks well of your grandparents, very well.

As I said earlier, there is no way of proving a Black Diamond to be authentic unless there is some documentation of it. Since they continued making them for so long, they could be special ordered in any fashion in their later years just like the Model 12. So, they did not necessarily have to be a Trap Grade to be a Black Diamond. As far as the diamond stamping, we discussed this a while back on whether a Diamond Grade Model 12 had to have a diamond stamped on the magazine band to be authentic. I have personally talked to probably the best authorities on the Model 12 over the past few years about this and they all have different opinions on whether the Model 12s have to have the stamp to be authentic. So, there has never been any proof of that either. Unless you have the paperwork or some kind of proof, you'll never know for sure.

I know one guy near here who is an excellent checkerer and wood finisher. I know and have seen at least two Winchesters that he has replaced the wood with original Diamond Grade wood and sold them as Black Diamonds. And you would not have been able to tell the difference.