doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Solution to nontox for vintage sxs

Feed a mallard a few (6-8?) lead 6's and the bird will die. I recall some of the worst cases of lead shot ingestion by waterfowl occurred in cropfields located in sandy soil where the pellets were taken for grit.

it would seem to me that some folks here are of the same mindset of the market hunters of the late 18 and early 1900s. assuming that in no way would hunting in the spring be bad for waterfowl, using punt guns or shooting 100s of birds in a day would decrease the population. those game wardens didnt know sh** and there will always be ducks in the sky. was there hard evidence that this was to be cause for massive drops in population? maybe, maybe not. we've figured out that over hunting is wrong and we've figured out that lead does cause health problems in any animals system. as far as a ban on all lead is concerned i think there will end up being an alternative its just going to take getting rid of the idiots at the top that are digging in their heals and refusing to change. not at all unlike the oil companys swaying american automakers to keep pumping out the cars and trucks that cant efficiently burn fuel. every so often there needs to be revolutions in the way we take care of our resources. market hunting is dead and lead for waterfowl is dead. death is immanent for lead for anything.

and for shooting steel, if you cant knock down a duck with steel, get out of the marsh. you know working ducks to within your gun range will greatly improve your kill rate. im not old enough to know what shooting lead at ducks was like, but i do know ive hardly lost 12 cripples in the last 3 years of ducking and ive shot 50 plus birds in each of those seasons. id just as soon lose the guys that sky bust and complain you cant kill anything with steel from the hunting community, then have them give the real sportsmen a bad image in the minds of non hunters. this divided we fall stuff is crap. dump the dummys and show the public what great stewards of the land and game hunters can be and i think you'll greatly improve our standing in society.

Mr Gagne, apparently you don't mind or have a problem with possibly having a collection of classic american double guns turned into useless pieces of wood and steel. If a government wants to put in place retstrictions that take my property away or it's value and usefulness, they owe me monetary compensation. I am ready to accept a lead ban if the government will buy each classic firearm I own that is incapable of firing high pressure high velocity steel shot, for an accurate appraised price of current pre lead ban price.

Steel for the most part works and I have used it effectively. I am old enough to have shot waterfowl with lead. I have also used Bismuth. In plain terms, steel sucks and is inferior at all ranges in any gauge and I shoot 10, 12 and 20. I ahve been frustrated to shoot magnum loads of the properly sized steel shot at close range and lose birds. This after leaving the sky looking as if I shot a pillow. Geese are especially tuff and even at 25 yards I have lost birds clearly hit hard with 10ga steel BB's at 25 yards. I do not like to see the disproportinate number of birds leave the fields clearly hit, not able to keep up with the flock or unable to gain altitude and not be able to retrieve them. This happened to me and people in my party all too often in the several years after lead was banned and before I started using Bismuth.

If you think hunter's can improve their image and standing in a society whose demographics have changed from living close to the land to not you are naive or too great an optimist.

AND since you think people who are digging in their heels to keep their treasured antique guns in the field, or shooters who want to keep clay pigeon shooting affordable are idiots. Then let me say you sir are the south end of a north bound horse!!!

Mr. Gagne,

Do you ever post without boasting of your superior shooting and hunting ability? I am once again underwhelmed by not only your bragging but also by your laziness to type a single capital letter. Too bad you never fail to type a profane word using the * key.

first off they're loads of people that have collections of guns that they dont shoot. secondly, punt guns, battery guns, eight gauges, duck traps, sink boxes, all items used for making a living and were depended on for doing so all outlawed and rendered useless that were property of some one that i doubt were compensated for. it happens every day with new laws. what do you think is going to happen when they outlaw gasoline after a new fuel is found and made the norm. theres either going to be adaptation kits for those classic cars or they're going to become useless pieces of metal and rubber.

as for the guys diggin in their heals im reffering to those that own gun and ammo companies that instead of spending money to find a good non tox shot at a decent price, they come out with some new cartridge in some new caliber. in the half dozen new varmint calibers that have come out since the condor issue have any of them been non tox? have they even made an effort? and most companies making rifle bullets make shotgun shells, so their souldnt be a problem sharing what works and what dosent for effective non tox loads.

ive shot geese with steel and ive shot ducks with steel and dont see a problem. ive shot pigeons with lead and grouse and black birds with lead and have seen cipples. you can kill anything with anything if your shot placement is good. ive watched videos of guys shooting geese with steel and breaking their necks and droping birds like nobodies business. you cant shoot geese and turkeys in the chest and expect them to die.

maybe i am an optimist but ive talked to people that see my camo hat and say "oh your one of those" and then managed to get permission from those same people to hunt from their yard that had lake frontage for ducks and i didnt pay anything or trade anything for it. it only takes getting to know those people and being able to show them that you care about wildlife. what i dont understand is why with every other situation the theme of give a little to get a little applies but some how with guns and hunting the hunters have decided to bull way through and demand all or nothing and have gotten the same reaction from antis.

after all when all the land in 20 years is consumed and privately owned its going to be the folks that know how to deal with people in an appropriate manner that will be allowed to hunt on those lands.

Ed, the waterfowl debate is over and done with. Dead. As dead as all the ducks that died from eating lead; as dead as all the eagles that ate unrecovered ducks shot with lead (and probably pheasants too) and then died as a result. So . . . whether there is sufficient evidence where waterfowl is concerned isn't the issue.

But I don't see asking for the same kind of proof where UPLAND BIRDS are concerned is "digging in one's heels". It's simply asking for good science--which even the MN Nontoxic Shot Advisory Committee says does not exist--although they reference dozens of studies on waterfowl.

So where are all the pheasants that have died from eating lead? And why are the eagles--which were the subject of the lawsuit that, in part, brought about the lead ban on waterfowl--now one of the great success stories when it comes to endangered species recovery? Why do we need to expand the lead ban, when it appears that the restrictions currently in place have more than met their objective?

Well yes i guess that does look like i am bragging. I do miss birds and i have had cripples. What i am saying is that i think this whole thing of how inferior steel is to lead is bogus. I know of plenty of folks that kill plenty of ducks with plain old xpert steel. I also know that of the folks ive spoken to in person that complain the most about steel shot are the ones i witness in the bays and marshes shooting at ducks at 80 and 100 yard ranges. These guys are crippling birds and watching them sail a half mile out into the lake to die. There are far more folks out there that have way to much false confidence in their equipment then knowledge of their own abilities.

Please tell me so if you can shoot ducks at 100 yards with lead and i'll shut up.

A government rendering personal property useless without compensation may have happened in this country but it has never happened to me. I don't plan to stand around and let it happen without voicing my concern and putting up a fight.

As far as a low cost substitute for lead as a projectile, have you checked the periodic table of elements. There are no equals to lead for characteristics vs. cost.

"I have watched videos of guys shooting...." That is a real qualifier for an opinion! "you cant shoot geese and turkeys in the chest and expect them to die", what do suggest wait for the geese to land? You can not shoot geese on the wing even at close range and guarantee pellets in the head and neck every shot. Fact is steel pellets are so hard they go through the bird, exiting and leaving a wound like an arrow. Lead pellets are more prone to not fully penetrate and thus impart the full potential of each pellets kinectic energy on the animals nervous system. Lead kills with body shots far more than steel shot and one can not count on broken wings with every shot to stop them.

Hunters have lost too much over the years and if you have been at for several decades you'd know. Hunter's have made compromises and it seems to be the case of cooking the frog by turning up the heat slowly. Those of us who have felt the water boiling so "no more".

We are losing open land to hunt but we have also lost hunters and much of it due to over regulation (and I have worked at a Wildlife agency so I know). Right now it's a drag race to see if we are going to run out of hunters before we run out of land.

In your posts I am reminded of so many people who embrace liberal political positions. They put themselves out there and say 'I care more about the issue" and "I am doing something". It doesn't seem to matter if what is being done is really doing a bit of good, it makes the person feel better for doing it.

I have no idea how old you are but I suspect your relatively young. Don't be so quick or willing to give up any of your present freedoms, they will be taken away from you sooner or later by our Nanny state government mentality.

Mr. Brown your right about the waterfowl issue. I'm not saying that i'm for a ban of all lead, i am saying that i think its coming.

I am relatively young, 21 infact. The video opinion is just a reference to people who dont seem to have problems with steel, cause dare i list another personal experience as evidence for my opinion for fear of being called a bragger.