doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Solution to nontox for vintage sxs

Thanks for the photo, Last Dollar. My only caveat is your use of the word "harvest." I never use it, whether killing birds or cutting trees. It's playing to the bleachers, in my opinion. Euphemisms have their place. I make no apologies to any one about killing birds or game, nor should others here. Don't back off one inch to make it sound different from what it is. It lets the antis in. Regards, King

Recoil Rob,
I specifically searched out a more modern hammer gun for the exact purpose you describe. I looked at Siace and Poli but could not find anything reasonable. Not easy to find one at all. I came across a Bernadelli Italia Hammergun at Pintail Point this year, fell in love with it and bought it. It was built in 1967 or '68. I originally wanted to buy Jim's but his LOP was way short for me. I opened the chokes and with Jim's advice I have an eye for the future of adding Brileys for steel if I felt it needed it. I am pretty sure it will hold up as is. I am happy.

On the other hand I have been collecting, in a small way, Parkers and Remingtons and I am uncomfortable that they will be next to useless in a few years for much else than hanging on the wall. Probably can't even hang it on the wall in NJ.

Good points from King and Market hunter...300 Cartridges a year might change their mind, I am sure. I dont like the word "harvest" either, now that I think about...FYI: King, my wife spent 10 days or so in Nova Scotia this summer....Lovely place, from the pics and her description!

I think there'll be a solution for non-tox in vintage guns. But, I don't think it'll be cheap. Non-tox requirements may make "shooter grade" guns somewhat less marketable, but the "non-shooter collectables" will probably not take a hit.

Just like the current gas prices, if there is an alternative that is developed, there is no reason for the suppliers of that alternative to price there wares much below the only other alternative. If the fuel cost of pushing a 5000lb pickup down the road is 25 cents a mile today, alternative fuel to push it a mile will be "competitively priced". Likewise, if another non-tox shot comes down the road, it'll be priced like other recent equivalents.

There are things that do far more harm to the earth than lead shot, and there are things that do far more harm to people than lead shot in a duck pond. Doesn't it make you wonder why lead has been singled out and banned?
We put-up with things that kill us in great numbers everyday, and yet we go after the few who hunt ducks.
Its ammoless guns the new order wants gentlemen...Condors indeed!

An ounce of steel has more pellets than an ounce of lead. While it seems like the steel loads are smaller, weight wise, they really aren't, count wise.

Pressure is the devil in the details. Effective steel loads don't produce low pressure readings.

High pressure loads of steel are the cross we will bear in the near future.

More than one old A5 with a thin barrel was bulged before anyone ever thought of steel shot-big sized loads of buckshot do the same thing to thin walled guns of any vintage. Nobody has ever been able to prove a bulged barrel is less effective, but, it sure is ugly.
Best,
Ted

Pressure!!! Haven't the ammo companies mantained similar pressure in todays ammo as that developed early in the 1920's when Winchester/Western introduced the 3" 12b shell? And LC,Ithaca and Fox matched it with guns. Wasn't the market then flooded with 2 3/4" high brass ammo with pressures comparable to todays loads. In general, most hunters assumed ammo off the shelf was good to go in any gun they could stuff the shell into. So for the past 80plus years, only the very knowledgeable understood the underlying dangers of high pressure loads being shot in mild steel barrels built in the first part of last century. But, tens of thousands of these vintage guns survived the pounding of 10-12,000 PSI ammo in good shape and continue to be shot today with all sorts of factory ammo. Personally, I prefer all the fuss of handloading for my guns but don't fear the use of factory loads such as the KentTM,and Bismuth which I believe are loaded to todays standard PSI. But if push came to shove, I'd probably use steel. Randy

Scandinavia have restricians on the use of steel shot in forestry and plantations, Denmark is very restrictive to hunters,Netherlands is practically totally steel shot use for clays and game, cosequentially the Dutch now travel abroad for their sport.The UK is total non-tox for waterfowl but poorly policed, therefor many still use lead for EFFECTIVE kills.WHO are these scientists who brought this legislation in? where are they now? moved on I suppose now they've screwed our sport.
There are NO suitable economical alternatives to lead.Dead waterfowl don't complain about lead shot, but winged and maimed birds as a consequence of steel sure are a dreadful sight to see flapping.USE LEAD.

These scientist are in the pockets of those who would like to ban guns altogether. Knowing that are a million untold guns about, they'll make what they shoot harder to get and then impossible.
Inch by inch, and cause by cause, and it will sound all very nice and lovely.
...and we'll say - but of course ol'boy - I didn't know ammo could put a hole in the fabric of space 'n time.
How silly of me!

Salopian, when you say that the UK is "total nontox for waterfowl", are you including Scotland, or have the laws changed since I was there in 2001? Back then, lead was still legal for waterfowl in Scotland but not in England, as I understand it.

There are barrel-friendly (and even some loads that are also pressure-friendly) nontox alternatives for vintage guns. And they would probably work OK for most vintage shooters' hunting needs--unless he shoots a 28 or .410, for which there really aren't any good alternatives at present. However, many of us like to shoot our vintage guns at targets as well, and there are no barrel-friendly, pressure-friendly reasonably priced alternatives to steel when it comes to target loads. Likewise, if one has to shoot nontox at birds like grouse, woodcock, and quail, where the preference is for open patterns and small shot . . . not even currently-available steel loads work all that well, and there aren't really any other nontox options.

So . . . yes, we can all shoot steel, if we can all live with tighter patterns and larger shot sizes, and if our guns can handle it. Otherwise, our vintage gun alternatives are far more limited and/or expensive in comparison to currently-available lead loads.