doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Solution to nontox for vintage sxs

I can provide two examples.

I have a refurbished 1911 A. H. Fox "A" grade 12 gauge that is choked IC & LM (29" slightly cut barrel) that I have fired with several hundred rounds of factory steel #3's, #4's and #6s, -- both 1 oz. and 1-1/8 oz. Zero damage of any kind.

I also have a 1951 Browning A-5 with 12 gauge factory Cylinder Bore barrel that has fired over two hundred rounds of the same factory steel shells with zero damage.

Neither of these guns have any scratches or scoring in the bores.

Steel is required for upland birds at some Illinois public hunting areas.

JERRY

Obviously, the pressure issue is something we need to take into account, in addition to the hardness of the projectiles.

One problem with all the nontox alternatives to steel is cost. One problem with Hevishot in particular is that advertising it as "better than steel" is misleading. If by "better" you mean it's denser and you can use a smaller size shot, so far so good. If by "better" you mean it delivers patterns that may even be tighter than steel, OK again. But if you're looking for something that's "better" in the sense of producing more open patterns--like maybe for hunting grouse, woodcock, or quail in areas where you have to use nontox--then HS would be the wrong choice, because even in very open chokes it delivers full choke patterns.

The problem with all the nontox options we have, including steel, is that either they don't give all the performance options offered by lead (small shot/open patterns, like for clay targets or much upland game), or they're extremely expensive. I hope that changes before we ever get around to a total ban on lead.

One of the original claims made for Bizmuth when it was being developed was that as demand increased & a market developed it "Would" become "Cost Competitive" with lead. Guess that meant price of lead would rise to meet it "Huh??"

I think LG is right. The issues with bulging are associated with shot size. Larger shot and tighter chokes are more prone to shot pellet "bridging"while entering the choke section. Shot should flow through the choke constriction. However, if a few pieces of shot arrive at the constriction in a bridge formation, it takes a very small extra fraction of a second for enough force to be generated by trailing shot slowing down to collapse the bridge. That small fraction of a second of slow down is all that is necessary to create a gas hammer behind the wad. Thinner and softer barrels are more succeptable to a gas hammer rivle.

I once owned a Fox HE that had been cut to 29". I think it maybe started out as a 32" gun. There was not much choke left in it( I think Orlen told me about 0.010). After reading the chapter in McIntosh's "Best Guns" about steel shot in old doubles I had the chambers lenghtened to 3"(they were 2 3/4") originaly with long cones by Orlen and shot factory 3" steel BB and BBB through it for geese for about 3 or 4 seasons. It probably only amounted to 2 or 3 boxes of shells.
This was about 1988 to 1991 and there was not as much knowledge of lower pressures in old guns and I did not think about it much,
after reading in McIntosh's book "If you must shot steel in an old gun,there is one likely candidate:an A.H. Fox HE Grade, also known as a Super Fox.". I also thought about having Briley install choke tubes but decided not to.
I never found any damagein the barrels from the steel and when Galazan bought it from me he didn't either.

Fritz

To add to the recoil issue: i just recently ran the numbers and an 8lb gun firing 1&1/8 oz shot at 1500fps offerd up 30lbs of recoil. That may put L.C. Smiths out of the equation as Waterfowlers?

Here we are worrying about steel and other non-toxic alternatives because kids from a University decided that lead was harmful to wildfowl.Those kids were educated and funded with my taxes.Now I'm paying extortionate prices for lead shot, non-tox, gasoline, and everything else.
The Chinese don't give a cent about mine and your predicament.
Ducks feet are a particularly favourite delicacy in China.
So leave lead alone and tax the Chinese and Chinese restaraunts.There's millions of them.
That would probably save more wildfowl than all the waterbirds shot by lead, Worldwide.

We had hunter/guests here this year from New York, Pa, Ga, NM,Co,Ark and the great state of TEXAS. All, of these folks, ALL, shot Good SidexSides. When the subject of cost of Non tox cartridges came up, they mostly opined that it was not a factor as relates to their hunting plans. I believe them.
New subject: We have all read about the effectivness of steel shot as compared to lead. (killing power) Convincing my wife that it was needed for research, I bought a brandy new Cz/Huglu 12 bore the other day. I have had it in the field 3 days now, couple hours per day, and have harvested 9 roosters,fireing 11 shots, using #4 STEEL shot. 2 of those shots were clean misses. Of the 9 birds hit, 7 were as dead as these tough Ks. roosters ever get when they hit the ground. 1 needed a lil looking by my dog, and one required a spirited "catch em" by same dog. Ratio, I would guess, about the same as if I had been using lead. The only concession I made to using steel, was to pass up a few birds that I would have taken with the "Big 10 E" and Joe Woods special loads. So, what does this prove? I dunno, I found it interesting and worth sharing. For the good of the sport, I will continue my research ,in the field, until the close of the season .........

Well price matters to some folks, me for one. I do a lot of waterfowling, shoot easy 300 shells a year. I just can't afford to buy my favorite cartridges anymore. I'd end up blowing $1000 just on shells every season. That's a nice trip to somewhere I've never been, and I'd rather travel than buy shells by a long shot. I've got a good stock of cartridges on hand, should last me at least two seasons, but once that's gone I'm back to steel and probably a more modern gun.


Destry

We've only been discussing "vintage guns" in the sense of guns 50-100 years old. The problem of bulging muzzles cam be eliminated by open chokes. Then the problem of pressure and recoil are left.

I recently bought two guns made in the late 1960's - early 1970's, a Janssen Fils 3" 12ga. and an AYA 3-1/2" 10 ga. I'm thinking choke tubes would solve any bulging problems, the rest of the gun should be able to handle the pressure and recoil if not excessive.

Both these guns were built for "modern" loads, do current steel loads exceed those limits?