doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Solution to nontox for vintage sxs

I think all of us have been somehow affected regarding the nontox issue. This is posted to clarify a couple thoughts I have.

IF a post 1920's, steel barreled SXS (be it a Fox,Parker,LC,Lefever) and choked to IC/Mod were shot with light pressure game loads with steel shot and proper shot cups. What will happen????? Has anyone documented barrel wear or damage from such a practice? I've heard that tight choked guns might bulge from the passage of a payload that doesn't obturate through the chokes. Take for example all the Win. model 12's that probably had thousands of factory steel shot through them, but no one seems to put up a red flag with those guns. And how many of our own sxs's have had steel through them before we got them. I've starred down lots of barrels and besides rust and dent issues, I have not looked at one that I thought had steel shot damage. Please, a sensible discussion. Take away all comments in regards to the sense of tradition, emotional handwringing, old wives tales, name calling and finger pointing. Years from now, steel maybe the only answer. Randy

I concur. From what I understand the only real damage can occur with tight chokes, the load will not compress and will bulge the choke area. Older guns will open chokes shouldn't be a problem, within safe pressure limits.

I shot a few steel loads through a a Steven 5000, M&F, no problems.

I've known a lot of guys that have shot some steel through vintage guns without any trouble. I've done it myself, in a 97 Winchester, a Stevens, and even a Parker in an emergency situation. But I've also seen fixed choke 870 and 1100 Remingtons damaged by it. But that was all in the early days, haven't seen one in a long time. Worst I ever saw was in an early Stevens Arms & Tool pump gun that a boy I went to high school had. It had deep scratches all up and down the bores, though again, that was with the early nasty steel.

Seems like I've read where Worth Matheson talks about having shot cases of steel loads through an LC Smith with no problems.

Hell I know somebody that shot Hevi-Shot through a Bernard Steel CH Parker this past season without any damage. Though I don't know as I'd keep that up on a regular basis, I think it would only be a matter of time.


Destry

I also agree. As a matter of fact when steel first came into law I used a Stevens 511 (I think) for ducks and though it was mod/full I saw no ill effect. Killed ducks well! I do not reccomend this with better guns or if you have much sentimental feeling toward that Stevens. That full choke might start going left?

Gamebore manufacture a very good steel load called Pro -Steel.Excellant plastic shot cup, I have been told that it is possible to shoot them through IM & F chokes, but I err on caution myself.Should be good to shoot through M or less.
I have shot them and they seemed very good, broke clays very well, out to 40 yards.The ones I used were 7/8oz load size 7 1/2 speed was advertised at 1375fps.Initial impression was very good.
Now if only I could get over my prejudice.

Could there be a difference in shooting gamebird size steel shot, and waterfowl size steel shot?

I have never shot steel loads but I am under the impression they have very high velocity to make up for the lower density of the shot. Wouldn't the recoil of the high velocity loads be damaging to the wood and reciever?

You know there is something called Hevishot that is very dense so one can go one size smaller than lead and still get good results. Gee, they also make shotguns designed for it with some having synthetic stocks that don't split, crack, or rot. Now can you imagine that. The Benelli Montefeltro handles right along with most doubles that people use.

The "within safe pressure limits" goes to the crux of it, I think, with our older guns and their older metallurgy. With steel needing high starting velocities (note the 1375fps that Salopian mentions) to have any downrange effectiveness whatsoever, I'm skeptical that there will be such a thing as true lower pressure loads (CIP, i.e. 8,500 psi) where steel is employed.

I know we can readily do it with lead shot and the more progressive burning powders, but then again, the more sensible of us vintage gunners aren't hand-loading lead at 1300fps and up when it isn't needed to kill cleanly.

At those higher muzzle velocities of 1300-1400fps, I'll need some solid proof that they are being attained with pressures well below the 8,500 psi mark. And even then, I'll probably be holding out for a more affordable non-tox pellet with more lethality than steel. The last part of that is easy.....the rub is in the affordable part.

Robert

Recoil is the result of Mass times Velocity. While wts of powder charge, wads etc all enter into the equation simply multiplying shot wt by velocity & comparing will be very close. 7/8oz @ 1375 (.875 x 1375 = 1203) should be no more damaging than 1oz @ 1200 for instance. "IF" the shot wt remained constant, then a higher velocity would of course put more strain on the gun, but steel loads are nearly always loaded with a lighter wt shot charge than an "Equivalent use" lead load.
Note; This does not address the pressure issue which is entirely another issue, & is certainly something which has to be considered with the older guns, as mentioned.