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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10 |
I’m new too much of this older gun thing, so bear with me! I’ve been looking for an older SxS for sometime and found one that appeared to fit the bill. The gun in question is an inexpensive pre-war English 12g with 30-inch barrels, original 2 ¾ chambers and seemed to be in pretty good shape. I gave it the recommended once over I’ve read about various places. The guns seems tight, the lever is well to the right - more so than any other gun I’ve looked at or any other gun of this vintage in this particular shop. When giving the gun a good shake with the fore-end off there was no sign of looseness. No case colors remaining except for a bit in the water table. The barrels looked good.
While inspecting the gun, I noticed that light was visible between the breech face and the breech end of the barrels. Light was visible from the water table up to about the centerline of the barrels. Above the barrel centerline no light was visible. This led to a rather circular discussion with the shop owner - the gun was tight – no you shouldn’t be able to see any space between the barrel and the breech face – the gun was tight. I have no reason to doubt the fellow’s word, but he didn’t or couldn’t explain this apparent contradiction to me.
So, my questions are; 1) should there be any space noticeable between the breech face and the barrels and, 2) can anyone recommend a gunsmith in the Denver area familiar with older sxs’s that might give the gun the once over?
Thanks for your help.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,257
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,257 |
Welcome to the board.
There are several reasons for a gun to be off face.
One absolute is that if there be obvious space between the breech face and the barrels, IT IS OFF FACE.
The lever being so far to the right also makes me suspect something having been done that may not be a good thing.
It could be an expensive fix. With so many reasonably priced used SxSs out there, I would pass on this one.
Best,
John
Humble member of the League of Extraodinary Gentlemen (LEG). Joined 14 March, 2006. Member #1.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
With the mention of British origin and some "age" to the gun, the potential vs. the actual benefits of handfitting arise. Undersmoked and overfiled? The Monday-morning apprentice job? Sounds to me like it is on-face and also not the beneficiary of top-drawer workmanship. American machine-made gun with 30 years of sky-busting loads thru it. Different story.
jack
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2 |
On a lot of "American" doubles you will see a bit of light coming from between the water table and barrel flats towards the breech ends...but you should see no light between the breech end of the barrels and the action face.....
gunut
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,572 Likes: 165
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,572 Likes: 165 |
Paul, don't know how far down the road of vintage guns you've gone to this point. But in addition to the good advice you've gotten above on the gun you're looking at, I'd add a bit more. If you're looking at older English or European guns, don't assume that just because they have factory 2 3/4" chambers, they're good to go with all or even most current American factory ammo. There's still a pressure issue that must be considered. Proof standards for most of those guns were not the same as the current SAAMI standards in this country.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 572
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 572 |
Possibly the lever to the right is a result of the gun being really off face and someond smacked the top of the standing breach with a lead hammer. I think this was described in an older thread about "hard fitting" that someone on this board talked about talking to a worker at the Fox Factory.I could be wrong.
Regards, Gordon
Our Dogs make our lives better
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 131
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 131 |
Go to: http://www.bertramandco.comSteve is in Boulder, CO. Seems like he knows his way around old doubles.
The only constant in life is change.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
A situation like this is hard to diagnose without actually looking at the gun. With light visable at bottom, but not at top, sounds as if bbls are not totally fitting the face square. The "May" have left the factory like that or "May" have had some of that Aftermarket fitting mentioned. Also note, not all guns were made to have the lever to the right, but always came to center, regardless of wear or lack there-of. This is I believe found more often on British or Continetal guns than on American ones, though at least some US ones are also made this way. "IF" this was the case with this one it would definitely have been tampered with.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,308 Likes: 614
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,308 Likes: 614 |
I'd be glad to do an inspection for you Paul. I'm in Boulder and open tue-sat. A simple inspection, without taking the gun to bits, is a service I offer free of charge. Please feel free to call at 303-938-1996.
Steve
Firearms imports, consignments ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/Ez9oz9Rl.jpg)
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
From an old thread: A correctly jointed side by side double gun or rifle will show no gaps between the breech end of the barrels and the action face [standing breech] when closed and locked by the bolts. It should show some gap[.003-.006] between the barrel flats and the action bar. The width of the breech face and the hinge pin form a triangle which resists the side strain of firing the cartridge. For example, when the right barrel is fired, the strain is taken up by the left side of the breech and the hinge pin, and conversley for the left barrel. The opening strain is taken by the locking bolts.
As the hinge pin wears or the action is overstrained, the barrels come away from the action face. With some wear, and before a rifle is "off face" the barrels will stop against the standing breech at a slightly lower position, and the gap between the barrel flats and the action flats will diminish. This wear is compensated for by the slight taper built into the locking surfaces of the bolts and lumps. With more wear, the barrels eventually stop against the action flats, and the barrels are said to be "down on the flats". At this point,the rifle may still be tight, or some vertical loosness may be detected in the locking bolts.
With further wear or overstrain, the rifle will come "off the face", meaning that a gap occurs between the action face and the ends of the barrels. Once this happens, the rifle will loosen itself very rapidly as repeated firing will begin to hammer the hinge pin due to the head start given to the barrels by the loosness.
The best way to detect an "off face condition is to blacken the ends of the barrels with soot, and carefully put the gun together. Where the breech touches the barrels, the soot will rub off, and you will know contact has been made. This is the process by which the barrels were fitted to the action in the first place in the process known as "blacking down". A quick check can be done by holding the assembled gun to the light, and checking for no light showing at the ends of the barrels, and some light comming through the flats between the lumps. This does not work well with rifles that have sideclips or rib extensions. Another way is to close the rifle on a thin piece of paper. an "on face" rifle will not close completely. One can also remove the forend and while holding the stock and action, give the barrels a slow side to side shake. any looseness will be felt unless some clodpate has "tightened" the action by peaning the lumps. Be sure to check for this! Also examine the hook to be sure this hasn't been peaned as well.
All this being said, the only way to correctly repair an "off face" rifle is to either replace the hinge pin with a larger one and refit the barrels, or, for rifles that do not have replacable pins, weld the barrel hook and then refit the hook and barrels. Because the refitted barrels will stop at a higher spot on the standing breech, the locking bolts will also be tight again, and the rifle is good for a lot of further usefull life. Also - check that some "gunsmith" has not peened the lumps with a hammer or squeezed the lump in a vice to "tighten" the gun. Pete
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