doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Saint Etienne info. please?

St. Etienne was the site of a French national armory. That is how it got its start in the gun trade. The armory was sold and eventually became Manufrance(S.P.?) Anyway, lets get back to the 18th century. Napolean commissioned "Honor Muskets" from the St. Etienne armory. They where (are) very highly finished and rare.

Phil

Robert it has an unusual forend release. When you rotate the release lever the forend moves forward, lifting straight up removes it. When you replace it turning the lever back moves it back to the gun. No pressure and very secure there is actually 3 lugs that secure the forend. I can tale a picture of the lug arrangement and email it to you. I don't have an Ideal, maybe someone that does can tell us

Jim

Jim,
Thanks...it's robertchambers@roadrunner.com I owe you one...

"Crochet encastre" means dovetailed lump. It has nothing to do with the forend. The Robust is built as a "monobloc", while the Ideal is usually built with "demi-bloc" i.e. chopper lump barrels.

PBT

PBT,

Thank you...Please see.... http://www.gournetusa.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41

That,s what I've heard as well, but the Stephanois shotgun I had at hand at the time was marked "crochet encastre" but showed no evidence on the lumps...just as the fixed lump at the link shows no evidence...maybe I need new glasses...

Why do low grade,single proved, shotguns show this high grade feature? Thanks Again

Crochet encastré (there should be an accent over the final « e » in encastré. The phrase literally means hook embedded; what it means in the gun trade I do not know.
FWIW Velco is a French invention, from Velour (velvet) and Crochet, (hook.)

Kerryman,
I guess all fore end hooks are imbedded into fore end...and since the Darne shown has no detachable fore end and only one hook (the bbl hook)...It looks like PBT's interpretation is correct...but...I still don't see any dovetails on the lower grade guns marked crochet encastre...

That's great info about the Velcro...it reminds me of story I heard in college about a couple of chemical engineers who worked for Westinghouse Electric...they were trying to come up with a non-conductive substitute to replace the material being used at the time as an insulator, mica...originally it was a substitute for mica...hense the name Formica

Jim,
I'm sort of a beginner on Manufrance....that's the first time I've noticed a Robust to have the barrel lump completely through the bottom of the receiver. This Robust does not.



Also, I have speculated that this may be the year of manufacture...but again, I don't really know...does your Robust have a similar markings under the top lever?



If you compare this photo with the fore end iron photo above, you can clearly see the extra "22" has nothing to do with the serial number.

and lastly...your photography is so much better than mine..do you have any advice on what I'm doing wrong?

Extra numbers stamped under the top lever is for special addition on the gun .It change through the years with different numerotation. In 1923-24, the 1A means first grade of the model A for automatic sling.
Specificly here 22. I do not know too much about Robust. But is is very likely a similar scenario.

I've seen the pivoting forend latch typically used on Robusts referred to as a "Rigby latch". And at least a couple of the ones I've owned had the lump go through the floor of the receiver. One of them was marked No 28, just as James' gun is marked No 7.

I've got a book with a decent lexicon of French gun terms: "Les armes de chasse a canon lisse" by Pierre Fonteneau. The lexicon doesn't give the "crochets encastres" term, but there is a later illustration of barrel assembly in which "crochets" obviously refers to the lumps.

Bob, I think Greg has it pretty much right, I have or have had 6 Robust over the last 3 years. My thinking is that the 22 on your gun is the grade marking, it should be repeated on the front edge of the barrel flats or on the lower rib in front of the flats. I read somewhere that the grade numbers changed in the 1920s from 1 number to 2 numbers, about 1929 they went to 3 numbers but the middle number had nothing to do with the grade. Go figure must be a French thing, the following is a recap of the Robusts I have and the marking

1. #41992, marked 4 on the front lug and the barrel flat, no grade marking under the top lever, just the serial. Front lug extends through the action, no rib extension. Straight grip, 16ga, non-ejector, moderate engraving. Forend is like the one you pictured
2. #42907, marked 7 on the front lug and the barrel flat, no grade marking under the top lever, just the serial. Front lug extends through the action, has rib extension with top fastener. Straight grip, 16ga, non-ejector, quite bit of engraving. Forend is the odd one we discussed before, HRBP w/Manufrance logo. Has retractable sling.
3. #84623, marked 20 on the barrel flat, 20 marked under the top lever under the serial. Front lug does not extend through the action, no rib extension. Straight grip, 16ga, non-ejector, no engraving. No Forend , but must have been like the one you pictured, steel buttplate.
4. #137763, marked 214 on the lower rib in front of barrel flat, 214 marked under the top lever under the serial. 214 and 24 marked on plate in front of the triggers. Front lug does not extend through the action, rib extension with top fastener. Half pistol grip, 16ga, non-ejector, moderate engraving similar to the one marked 4 .Forend is secured by a roller and spring, steel buttplate. Date of 29 Dec 1929 is stamped under the buttplate in green ink.
5. #144689, marked 216 on the lower rib in front of barrel flat, 216 marked under the top lever under the serial. 216 and 26 marked on plate in front of the triggers. Front lug does not extend through the action, rib extension with top fastener. Straight grip, 16ga, non-ejector, more engraving than the one marked 4 .Forend is secured by a roller and spring, HRBP buttplate with Manufrance logo, stock has been shortened slightly, has retractable sling.
6. #166216, marked 201 on the lower rib in front of barrel flat, 201 marked under the top lever under the serial. No marking on plate in front of the triggers. Front lug does not extend through the action, no rib extension. Straight grip, 16ga, non-ejector, no engraving .Forend is secured by a roller and spring, steel buttplate , has the date stamped under buttplate 5 Feb 1932 like 214.

The forend irons on 4.5.and 6 are different than the others, they have a curved extension where it joins the wood .

Digital photos are a trial and error; I think lighting and a tripod help the most. Flashes seem to produce glare and over exposure unless you have an expensive setup. I made a light box with some PVC pipe, a white sheet and some daylight fluorescent bulbs and swinging arm lamps. I have an Olympus SLR with a dedicated Macro lens, but my wives point and shoot will do almost as well. I bracket all my shots on auto bracket and pick the best one. Some times you have to tweak the image with a photo-editing program, I use the one that comes with windows