doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Found the gun.. now need Stevens 22-15 SS Ammo...

Found a new shop that likes old stuff... came away with some new toys... including this Stevens 44 in 22-15 SS I had never heard of it before... but the gun was so pretty (I think it's been refinished) and the price was ridiculously inexpensive, I had to bring it home! I'm sure my wife will understand... If anyone here has a box of ammo, brass or dies, I'm in need. The single round pictured was from a customer that came into the shop after I bought the rifle... he was going to buy the rifle. He wasn't very happy... the shop owner said he had been beating him down for the last 6 months on the price and decided to sell it for less than his last offer... I got very lucky. Obviously, the guy with the round wouldn't sell it to me... still, life is very good.

Congratulations! I couldn't have walked away from it either. Looks at first blush to be a Model 47. Is there such a number stamped on the face of the receiver behind the fore arm?

Sorry, can't help with any cartridges. I sold the .22-15's I had a couple years ago. Cartridges are impossible to find anymore. I would keep an eye out for an individual case or two and plan on breech seating with them. The cartridge was a tough sell even when it was new - black powder fouling generated by the relatively large volume case in the tiny bore was appalling. Maybe post an appeal on the ASSRA forum?

Perhaps have a couple cases custom lathe turned?

Really nice looking rifle! Check over on the ASSRA site.

Yes, there's a sticky on ASSRA in the For Sale section at the top. ssdave is selling a bunch of new old stock Jameison brass and I believe he had some in this cartridge.
Any 44 model with double set triggers is a very rare gun. I see far more 44 1/2 than 44 with set triggers.

edit-I just checked and Dave doesn't show the .22-15 cases anymore on his list. Only other source is Rocky Mountain Cartridge for lathe turned brass. And it's very expensive at around $5-$6 per case last I checked.

The nice thing about Stevens 44 & 44 1/2 rifles is that the barrels are interchangable. They are simple to remove, The extractor is very simple to replace. You could get a 25-20 barrel & extractor and shoot your gem.

I believe your rifle is a model 47 and has a very nice Stevens 103 tang sight.

Your best source for brass is RMC as Vall mentioned. I suggest that you do a chamber cast and send that to RMC,

I have not seen any 22-15 brass for sale for many years. I almost bought a Stevens 44 in 22-15 from James Grant but could not find any brass.

Was able to pick up 10 pieces of used brass and several hard cast bullets for the rifle from Denny Hanel this week. He also gave me his favorite load ( 3.4 grains of Unique. Using a .22 Hornet shell holder... don't crimp the bullets... Today brought more interesting news, while visiting a good friend, Jim Wisner, he laughed when I told him of the rifle. He then proceeded to pull a Steven's 44 1/2 in the same caliber out of his gun vault! I tried to buy it off him, but he wouldn't sell it. He did say new brass was available... so, this might get a bit more interesting.

OSS,
The best (only?) case to modify would be 22 Hornet, but someone not in the business of doing it would find the procedures very difficult, special equipment would be required, and the donor case might be too short to be redrawn to the full length. If you can find a source of new cases, I suggest you "jump" on them.
Mike

There's a sticky in the Reloading section on the ASSRA website about making 25-20SS brass from common .223 brass.
In that thread there are also some responses about making .22-15SS brass from the above converted brass.

Nibbing is the process used to draw out the case to a longer length.
An involved machinist type project that requires a lathe and some special tooling for holding and forming.
The 'drawing out' process is done with a roller in the tool holder. Something like the knurling tool, but smooth faced roller(s) instead.

An involved project for sure, but the reading may be interesting in itself.

I want to try the 25-20SS brass conversion for a rifle I have,,just need one more thing to start and that is Time.

The .22Hornet case might be able to be 'retubed' to meet the great length the 22-15 demands. I think the 22-15 is a 2" length case.. The Hornet is something like 1.4"
That would make it a BP only case I believe. Retubing is generally kept for BP loads.
I don't know if there is enough wall thickness in the 22H to allow for drawing it to that 2" length and still have a case wall near the mouth that is sturdy enough.

Old cartridges and making them from common brass can be a fun project if it wasn't so frustrating at times.

RMC makes new brass… $95. per 20. Denny said a small pistol primer worked well too.

Kutter,
I think "nibbing" is limited in the length to which cases can be extended, I believe it saw use in making 45-90 from 45-70 before Starline started making it. I also questioned whether hornet cases could be "redrawn" to the required length, because of the same concerns you had. I haven't tried "retubing" because a friend (more experienced than I) tried to make 9.3x72R norm. that way, unsuccessfully. The use of .223 (or 222 also not too common) would require procedures/equipment that mostly only those engaged in the business would have but would be possible. I have, in my "pile" a couple 8x72R cases that were made from 30-06 and would have required similar procedures. Since post WW2 producers are mostly gone, I would be happy to find someone that can do this work commercially now. I am not convinced that lathe turned cases have the correct grain structure but can see the possibility for black powder cartridges that are large enough to permit thick " everlasting" type case walls.
Mike

Glad you got some cartridges from Denny! He's a great guy, and extremely knowledgeable on all things involving old US guns. I talked to a fella who is a friend of yours at the OAC collector gun show last weekend. As soon as he started describing your gun I told him I'd seen your post here.

Yes the nibbing is only draw out the OA length.
Then you still need to form the case in a FL sizer a;ong with the usual trimming to length.

Any of this drawing, nibbing and other drastic case elongation and sometimes diameter changes often rquires some equipment,,like a lathe and a very powerful press.
Not the norm for the average reloader.

I feel the same about lathe turned cases. They seem to work OK with BP loads from what I've read. Careful/watchful annealling seems to be one aspect of long case life.
Sometimes their cost per/case isn't too bad considering the alternative(s). But you often have to order a 100 or more. At even 6 or $7 a case, that's quite an investment.

BACO draws out some cases a good amount to make some obsolete brass they sell. I'm amazed at how much they're able to stretch cases. They stretch .30-40 Krag cases out to 2.50" to make the .40-70SS cases they sell.

I was surprised when I saw this post. I had never seen the case listed as a 22-15 SS. I thought this was something similar to the 25-20 SS. When I saw the pictures it was obviously the 22-15-60. I first became aware of the case when it was on the cover of Cartridges of the World (around the 3rd edition I believe). This was 60 years ago when I was a freshman in college. It was pictured in a group of cartridges and was one of the freakiest looking cartridge I had ever seen. It had an aspect ratio of over 8:1. Even at that time it was obselete. The writeup pretty much wrote it off as fouling faster than you could clean it. It has always been my understanding that the whole range of the 22 centerfires (and this one in particular) were supplanted by the 25-20 style of cartridges for small bore target shooting.In spite of this, I would still like to own one.
Like others, I believe that Rocky Mountain makes the cases. I have bought a lot of their products, mostly for old shotguns and black powder. At the pressures they run, their cases with BP simply last forever and are a good investment for antique guns. You only need as many as you would need at one sitting. With most bench or target shooting, reloading between targets is generally practical and actually preferred for changing conditions. Modern benchresters tend to firesort cases and have a match set that are fireformed and indexed fir rotation, using only these matched cases for sighters and scoring shots. With this system only a box of cartridges would be need for a match. I have never done BP target shooting but I thought at it's zenith, the bullet was started with a dedicated tool and a single cartridge used for every shot.

This story just got better for me... I called Ray Giles in Texas... he has a couple of full boxes. He sold a sealed full box recently off his webpage for $195. which I think is a bargain... I'm attending the Texas Collectors Show in Denton Texas in October and so is Ray, he's going to bring a box and a few extra rounds for me to purchase. The box is still shown on his webpage.

OSS,
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it would be a good idea to determine if the primers in that ammo are mercuric or not. I have mentioned pulling down a case of 11mm Spanish ammo a couple times before, these were also loaded by U.M.C. (ca 1911-12) and had mercuric primers (Berdan, in folded head cases). This was before BP shooters made 45-90 cases pretty common and I was using salvaged cases in my 11mm Spanish Rolling block. Over time, the mercury will make the cases too brittle to use for hand loading. The way to save the cases, if the primers are mercuric, is to pull the bullets, dump the powder and hydraulically de-prime them (if they are Berdan primed). If Boxer primed, but mercuric, hydraulically de-priming them is still best because if any detonate, they will ruin the case. Usually, when they first started using non-mercuric primers, their use was stated on the box. I don't know if the warning to use no. 1 1/2 primers was intended to accomplish this.
Mike

This thread might already be known to some...

https://forum.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1444011917/5

Thanks for the link... very interesting info...

I doubt most collectors would ever shoot a full original box of any old ammo, so what primers it has are a moot point. At the cost of collectible ammo and what it's worth once it's been fired I think it's something nice to have to go with a old rifle.
I picked up a late 1800's box of .40-63 Ballard Everlasting ammo with paper patched bullets at the CGCA show in Colorado last May. I bought it simply because the price was fair, and I own 6 Ballard rifles chambered in this cartridge. I have plenty of new brass to shoot, but having an original box of paper patched ammo I felt was neat to own.

The thread started as a search for cases so primers are not a moot point.
Mike

I think it becomes moot point when the thread changes to $195 collector ammo. If we were talking empty primed cases I'd agree, and deprime any regardless of what they were.

Vall, I'm guessing you are saying you wouldn't use collector ammo ($90.75 ea.) for cases to hand load for a collector rifle. As it happens, I pretty much agree with you, but I haven't been severely tested with a center fire rifle yet. From time to time, I do shoot a couple 25 Stevens Long RF cartridges for nostalgia's sake, and it is pretty expensive too. I don't know how many times I have tried to help a non-handloader get started loading for an obsolete caliber rifle that perfectly useable components are either easily or reasonably available, only to see them buy $180/box custom loaded ammo, instead.
Mike

Yes, that's what I meant. Even collectible ammo I bought way back before this stuff became collectible I still never shot as it was so old I didn't want to chance it for various reasons. I used to buy old lift top boxes of ammo at our local gun shows for $5-$10 a box just because I owned a gun in the cartridge and liked having original ammo for it. Now I see the same ammo selling for $300-$900 a box, and wonder how the ammo went so crazy?
I started reloading back in the 70's and had I not done so I'd never own most of the guns I have today since almost all of them are in obsolete cartridges that I couldn't buy ammo for. And most are also in cartridges I can't buy brass for either, so I have to make brass from donor brass that I can rework for my old single shots.

I'm about to break down and "break down" several boxes of old ammo for component use. I have 3 boxes of old reloads in 280 Dubiel which are valuable as cases and bullets only, and in fact they probably should be broken down to protect the brass, probably from 1929 if we go by the page from the Denver Post they were wrapped in. Also have a fair condition Griffin and Howe box of the same caliber, but the cases are all marked 300 H&H - I've never seen a 280 Dubiel or 300 Hoffman headstamp from that period - so there's no way to know if they're not just reloads put in a G&H box. Especially since someone wrote the load on the side of the box. I'm terribly sentimental and nostalgic but his old reloads are no more desirable than mine today, in fact less so, so I need to man up and just pull the bullets and clean up the cases. I feel their presence over my shoulder which makes it hard.

I've always had a soft spot for old ammo, but I find as time goes on I'm becoming less and less sentimental about it. Primers deactivating themselves aren't even an issue with me anymore, I'm more concerned with brass getting brittle, and what seems to be the biggest problem, powder breaking down. I have a box of old Krag ammo that the powder began to deteriorate in, it actually ate holes in the shoulders. When you start buying old ammo, you have no idea how it's been stored.


Tim

A friend owned a sporting goods store in the late 50's and closed it up in the 60's. He asked myself and another friend if we wanted any of the "junk" he didn't bother selling, and we both got a really nice counter top Remington ammunition display case. They have two sliding glass doors, and are sheet metal cases with shelves built in. Above the doors is a pretty, colorful Remington logo. It was a good place to store old ammo I never planned to shoot, and it fit on top if one of my safes and just hung over each side a few inches. Easy to access, but sometimes tough to find a particular box if it's buried in the back of one of the shelves. So far anything I've opened to look at has stayed in very nice shape, and my finished basement is dry and pretty much the same temperature all year round.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not seeing the point you're making. It seems that you're saying if you go out tomorrow, buy an 90-year-old box of ammunition, then store it in your ammo case for a few years, when you open it up it'll be in perfect condition. If that's the case, sorry, but I know better than that.


Tim