doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Parker value question

I have been getting an "itch" for a Parker 20 gauge. I was at the local gunshop today and they had a GHE with 26" barrels. I really want 28" barrels but this one was in excellent condition and looked to be original as well. That leads in to my question, this one was from the Remington era as it was marked "Parker" on the bottom.
So is there a value difference between the Remington era guns and the original ones?
Oh and the price was mid 8K, is that sound about right?

Yes. And I would not let a 2" barrel difference keep me away. Be sure they have not been cut! I love long barrels too, but you have to ask yourself "where is another one as good with 28" barrels?". The late Remington Parkers are, imho, more desirable because they tend to have much better wood and better dimensions, with equal quality engraving and finish. I have always liked the "PARKER" name on the bottom of the frame as well. If it fits you and you like the dynamics of the gun, 8K$ is about right assuming condition is right up there.
JR

$8000 for a shotgun is obscene...

If you have your heart set on a Parker, Join the PGCA and become a member. Lots of nice guns with great knowledgeable people.
You will have access to the for sale area. Lots of great guns are listed if you have a little patience. Plus if you find a gun for sale else where you will get some honest opinions from experienced members.
Top that off with a discounted letter option when you find a Parker you like.
Just my opinion that Parker would have to be one hell of a 26” gun to bring $8000.

Nah...

For some guns that's just the deposit...

That's some ''ITCH'' YOU HAVE, if you have $8000 to throw away on a Parker, ''YOU'' MUST HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY.
Buy your self a few M-21 Winchesters for that money.

Dirty Harry

Harry always seems to know what others should spend their money on and the guns that they should shoot. It is amazing that targets were ever broken or birds put in the bag before the double gun BBS and "I know what you should shoot better than you do" club was created.

DH, I have a 1948 Model 21, 20 gauge "Skeet" with 28" barrels and paid that much for it. Model 21's are not cheap guns either.

🙋‍♂️

The Best deal for $8000 in my neck of the woods would be ( 4 ) B-SS Brownings for the price of that one Parker. They go for around $2000
in nice shape (B-SS) IN MY AREA. New a lot higher. And the B-SS is a lot better gun than a fix or repair Parker any day of the week. Their is only one guy
that I know of that complaIned about a B-SS . Parker's on the other hand ''Keep'' many gun smiths eating ''Prime Ribs'' instead of ''Hotdogs''

Dirty Harry

Best,
Ted

Why then did they call the Parker "Old Reliable"

🙋‍♂️

That's a ''Great Question'' There is only one Valid Answer - Snow the general public with False Advertisement.
Tell the same lie often enough, and the people you told it too start to believe it.

Dirty Harry

I’m guessing you don’t have Iain Tyrell tune your carburetors either.

DimmyW, why are you about at the ed of your gun buying if you are only 47 years old? A lot of guys don't even become interested in doubles until they are in their 40's. Here is a QUOTE where you told Ed your preferred stock dimension, and the age you now claim to be.


I don't get it. You have told us that you are old and retired and can no longer walk in tall grass and brush to hunt birds. You have told us you even have trouble walking at the skeet range. You have posted a photo of yourself in Florida several years ago where you appeared to be in your mid-70's at best... yet you also claim to be 47 years old. You wouldn't lie to us, would you???

Could it be that you were just thinking fondly about our great 47th President Donald J. Trump?

How old did you claim to be when you returned to the Indiana Gun Owners Forum under a shill account?

Good luck finding a few model 21s for $8K. You might get two decent ones.

It's a BSS...no one is eating any hearts - their own, or others, over a low grade Japanese boxlock.

One word: Marketing.

I don't think I own anything with a carburetor at this point in my life.

🙋‍♂️

The only upland game friendly BSS are SLE versions which carry big premium over 12ga guns which sell for > $3000.
The Winchester 21 priced themselves out of the market, I would rather spend that money on smaller gauge Parker.
As someone suggested $8000 is possible downpayment on nice classic double, however, used (custum-made for someone else) stuff that costs > $100000 is nuts.

It depends on who you are, and how much $$$ you have.

I waded through an auction today and saw several guns that are expected to go for more than that.

The people who will buy them aren't nuts...

I have two BSS Sporters in 20ga, a 26" and a 28". There is nothing wrong with the Sporters for upland game. I also have a couple of Parker VHs in 20 gauge, both 28". The Parkers are lighter, trimmer, and prettier, but I have the great misfortune of living in California where we can't hunt anything with lead. The BSSs will digest anything I choose to feed them. I don't own any 21s (by choice) because they seem to handle like an expensive pig on the end of an expensive shovel.

Browning BSS make a good clays gun with the weight and single trigger. They are overbuilt and that means they are heavy. They only have single triggers and don't have a splinter forearm.

They are a good solid guns. They are not close in anyway to a original Parker except they certainly spend less time with a gunsmith.

Number of triggers has no objective bearing on how good a shotgun is.

Damning with faint praise? I mean, come on, I’m supposed to be going wild over a heavy, single trigger, beaver something forearm, Japanese boxlock, new in the box?

Funny, I don’t feel all wild.




Best,
Ted

_________________________________________________
I don’t feel tardy, either.

I have shot one for a long time, very successfully, at clays and ducks. They're an easy gun to shoot well, IMO. However, they are not overbuilt. I have measured the width of the action on my 12 ga. BSS and compared it to almost every other American and European made 12 ga. S X S I have (quite a few) and the action width across the balls is the narrowest of any !2 ga. S X S I've ever measured. If they're overbuilt it is not in the action.

Another reason I say they're not overbuilt is that I have used mine for clays and ducks since about 2009, and I have shot it off face on the right barrel. You can see daylight between the right barrel breech face and the standing breech, to the tune of about .003". I have maintained it properly by cleaning and lubing as long as I have owned it. They're just not as bullet proof as many would have you to believe.

Those of you who actually own one - measure the size of the action and compare it to other S X S guns in the same gauge and report your findings. I think you may be surprised.

As to Parker value . . . . I own exactly one Parker. It is a two gauge DHE, 32" barrels, with both 16 and 20 gauge barrel sets. It was, and is, easily an $8000 gun. And, there's nothing obscene about it, eddie.

🙋‍♂️

B.C. Miroku is a solid gun that can be a real bargain. For example, older O/U in good to very good shape with double triggers can be found for around $600. The SXS set up as game gun (dt, splinter forend, straight grip) will cost $1300-$1500. Since they handle about the same i see no reason to throw money away by buying horizontal version of the same.

That's not where to measure them...

You can ''SAY'' that AGAIN ! If they were close to a Parker, They would be in the Gunsmith Hospital much of the time. Take the Parker Repro, a new,
modern gun made with excellent materials, are ''BREAKING'' DOWN AT ALARMING RATES. Bad triggers, Stocks breaking at the skinny wrists, lugs on the barrels
''Breaking'' Off, Case Colors Fading off in a short year or so. Yes, gunsmiths love the repros, Now take Fox doubles, can't remember the last time I heard of one Breaking Down.

Dirty Harry

Havn't shot this 20ga yet. One of these day's.

There are more people right here that don’t grasp that there exist boxlock and sidelock versions that are both referred to, simply, as Browning BSS guns, than you would believe.

Unfired sidelock BSS 20 gauge? Very cool, if Karl doesn’t remember me in his will, hit me up when you want to unload it.

Unfired boxlock BSS 20 gauge? Naw, I already have a spare paddle for the duck boat, thank you very much.

Best,
Ted

I am one of those people Jimmy!! Stop posting anything about your BSS 20 gauge, Ya hear!!!! Oh, BTW, I am still interested IF you ever weaken!!!😁

BSS’s Always made good trading material. A 30” BSS makes a pretty decent clays gun although the chokes on mine are tighter than Dick’s hatband.

Surprised one of you fellows haven’t jumped on the
“investment opportunity” 20 ga. SKB ED is hawking in the for sale section.😆.

To answer the OP question. 8K for a GH seems aggressive. A motivated person with $8K can find a respecatable DH 20 ga. But, what level of condintion qualifies for you, how much time to spend on the project, and how much you value it in general are all personal items... SO if you have seen it and like it and might be willing to spend it.... Then decide... it's all up to you. Personally nothing short of an English stocked 32 in barreled 20 GA GH could get me over $5k on a GH grade Parker.

Then you shall do without. But you already knew that.
JR

I was a fan of SKBs until those came out.

Added weight for no reason, ruined the handling for me.

I'm not excatly sure what you mean there JR? Is that a known not to exist combination or a comment on pricing? Truth is I likely wouldn't give $4k for the aforementioned Parker, but my 32 in English stocked L.C.Smith 20 ga Grade 2 is wonderful and seemed more reasonable than that. I shared it in the DGJ a while back.

Mark, the gun you describe, if it were to somehow come available, would be a $10,000 gun, assuming top condition. Obviously, you would not be a player. That's all I was inferring.
JR

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...parker-ghe-20-gauge.cfm?gun_id=103720701
JR

🙋‍♂️

No, they did not...

^^^^^^^^^I'm trying to IGNORE this user... but I'm fascinated with how his stories constantly change! ^^^^^^^^^

Gee, I wonder why DimmyW feels it's probably too late to buy a Parker shotgun now, when he claims to be only 47 years old???


I also wonder why DimmyW felt the need to give his age along with his preferred stock dimensions?

And it seems to me that all of this discussion concerning whether this 26" barreled 20 ga. Parker GHE is worth buying for $8000.00 depends a lot on the actual condition. The high collector demand for small bore Parkers has driven a lot of owners to have them restored or refinished, and sometimes those restorations can be hard for many buyers to detect. At very least, any question concerning approximate value here ought to include a number of high resolution photos.

It’s possible it could have been ordered for a lady or a child. A letter if available might confirm. Your BSS will never be equal to that gun……..never.

YOUR 100% CORRECT, it will never be equal to a Parker, The Browning B-SS is a hell of a lot ''BETTER'' Gun than a Parker ever was !

Dirty Harry

Oh, but, I did:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=677006#Post677006

I do actually, make an effort to keep fools from being separated from their money.

Best,
Ted

You can measure wherever you want to. Less mass, less weight, less potential strength.

Not the point...if you want to get a real idea of the size and mass of a SxS, you measure the action behind the fences.

I suspect the size of a shotgun frame behind the fences has very little to do with a gun going off the face. And for some reason, my Physics professor never taught us to measure the mass of an object with machined internal voids by using something like a tape measure or caliper. Total mass of a shotgun frame could be quite substantial, yet still yield upon firing if it had poor design in critical areas.

Simply measuring the mass of an action, or the width behind the fences totally neglects very important factors like cross sectional area at the point of greatest stress, and/or the alloy and heat treatment of the steel.

We had a good discussion about this awhile back in one of the Ithaca Flues frame cracking Threads, along with an FEA analysis that Boxall & Edminston engineers did to illustrate the point of greatest stress upon firing with one of their frames. Hint: It wasn't behind the fences:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Words=Boxall&Search=true#Post636161

Geoff, I made the statement initially and made the point I, I, was trying to make. My point, my example. If I look foolish by measuring where I did, so be it.

But . . . . if the breech balls are closer together that means there is less metal between them. And, the breech ends of the barrels are closer together, creating a slimmer breech overall

If you want to make a point by measuring differently, do so. I've got no problem with comparison measuring any part of a gun you'd like.

If someone could post a photo for me I can show how a tiny action can be strengthened without adding too much weight or bulk.

Thank you.

Email it to me, I’ll get it up on the board for you.

tedjs@usfamily.net

Best,
Ted

OK, I just measured a Ithaca N.I.D, Fox, Parker, Winchester M-24, and a Browning B-SS, All guns are 12ga. The Ithaca is the Smallest, Next is the B-SS,
The Fox and Parker about the same, and low & behold, the WIN-24 HAS A HUGE FRAME COMPARED TO THE OTHERS. The Parker was a A-1 Special Trojan
With #2 Frame. The B-SS HAS THE 2ND Smallest frame size. And some Guys say they are huge, over built, ''PADDLES'', Wow, I sure don't See That.
What I do SEE IS A GUN THAT MUST BE BUILT WITH THE ''TOUGHEST STEEL MADE'', Maybe even stronger than Winchester Proof Steel. May be some of the
Steel Masters will chime in on the strength of Browning Special Steels !

Dirty Harry

Ted,
Photo sent. Thank you.

The point of what I wrote earlier about not measuring around the fences was more about the overall size of the action - there are 12 bores built on 20 gauge frames, ans "1620s" are relatively common.

Toss in round bodies, lightweight English 12s, and actions like the Ruger Gold Label, and while the measurement around the fences will be within a predicable range (two 12 bore chambers and the sides of those chambers) we'll get a much better idea of the mass of the action by measuring right behind the fences.

There's lots of other variables, but it's a better starting place than measuring around the fences.

zzzzzzzzzz

PM sent, Richard.

Best,
Ted

Richards pictures:




Best,
Ted

Thanks to Ted for posting the photos.
The point I wanted to make is shown here.
Both pictured guns are 28 gauge SxS of the same make.
The action on the right and on the bottom is small.
The one on the left and top is tiny. The forging was intended for a very small caliber double rifle. 22 Hornet.
The bolsters were retained to provide strength in the critical area at the junction of barrel flats and action face. The action is also fitted with sideclips and extended top rib fastener.
So far no issues with flexing or fracture.

The subject of bolsters is important, but not critical to the discussion of preventing the gun from going off face, IMO. While a weakening/stretching of the juncture between the action flat and the breech could cause the gun to go off face, that is not the only way it can occur. Wear on the hinge pin and wear on the barrels' hook can also contribute to it. And, again IMO, this is more often the culprit than a stretching/failure of the action flat/breech juncture.

WOW, All this started with one simple question, IS a $2000 Parker WORTH $8000 ?

Dirty Harry

Wrong again Joff.

If you don't know what mass is, and how to determine it... just stop stubbornly grasping at straws, and Google it.

You might want to ponder why you think an $8000 Parker is worth $2000...
JR

Seems you can find Parker Reproduction 20's in the $4-5000 range fairly easily, and except for the occasional lug failure they are touted to be better for extended shooting than their 100 year old counterparts. Point being, anything over that price and you are paying for collectibility rather than shootability. I went down the 16 ga road 30 years ago because I felt the 20's were overpriced and harder to find. Several of my 16s weigh just over 6 lbs with 28 and 30 inch barrels, whether on a 0 frame or a 1 frame, and I suspect those give a 20 gauge an even run for handling qualities. I have not paid more than $2200 for any of them, some much less. I have also acquired a Sterlingworth 20 with 28's, a Flues 20 with 30's, and an LC Smith Field Grade 20 with 28's. The Smith seems to feel more balanced than the other two at 6lbs 2oz. Again, not more than $2000 paid for any of them and only $900 for the Ithaca. The most I ever paid for a Parker was $5800 for a 28 ga VH with 28 inch bbls on an 0 frame. Weighed 6 lbs even. I loved that gun, but always took my 16's out hunting because I wasnt confident enough in my shooting to go with the small bore. Thats just me. I sold the gun for what I paid for it because I just wasnt using it. By the way, these are all 10%-20% CC guns with between 70% and 90 % bluing, and stocks without major issues and reasonably good checkering. This is a long-winded way of saying I think $8000 is way too much for the gun you describe, unless the gun is in benchmark condition, CC included. JMHO and good luck with the search.

Mike

but...

remember, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it...

and, if hit ain't sellin, drop the price every 30 days or so...

until you find the market...

or hit finds you...

Well I pondered on it for a while and came up with a answer for you. Do you remember the old saying, ''A Fool and his money are soon Parted''
This saying fits a guy that would Pay $8000 for a $2000 item. There is also a saying, ''Fools are born every day'', so there are some guys that would pay that $8000.

Dirty Harry

Unfortunately, the current market doesn't support any of what you wrote.

You seem to be the kind of guy who thinks he knows about the price of everything yet knows the value of nothing, especially in this particular scenario.
JR

Thaaaaaaaaats Harry. 👍👍

Bingo... there it is. Long before I became interested in SxS double shotguns, original high condition Parkers were collectible and coveted by more shooters than any other vintage U.S. made double.

There was a limited supply of Parker small bore guns in very good condition, and more important, there was more than enough demand to sustain high prices that only seemed to keep increasing.

I have a 20 ga. L.C. Smith Ideal grade with auto ejectors in very nice condition. It is about the grade equivalent of a Parker GHE. The past, present, and probably future market dictates that a 20 ga Parker GHE in equal condition will always sell for quite a bit more than my 20 ga. Ideal grade. I could disagree with that, but i'm not going to change it anymore than I could change the flow of the Mississippi River by swimming upstream.

Honestly I would scratch my old man 20ga "itch" by buying SKB 100 25" 1/2-1/4 choked gun from LGS for $600+tax and pocket the rest of what's left of 8k. I believe one could easily use upland steel loads in it in case they ever ban lead shot use.
Extractors are not hinderence to guys who go deep into the woods shoot twice and eat what they shoot.

,
I am glad you gave your ''Honest Opinion'', I almost forgot about the Ithaca SKB 100 & 200 shotguns. They are excellent guns,
in about the same class as the Browning B-SS, for less money. Watch out, you may be ''Verbally Attacked'' by the Parker Group,
as they only Value their ''Opinion's'', not yours or ''My''

Dirty Harry

Some of y'all act like spending $8K on a shotgun is smoke up a chimney. I'll bet the farm I can get back what I paid for my $8K DHE Parker at anytime, unless there is a complete economic collapse.

There's an old truism that "You make money on a gun when you buy it, not when you sell it." Pay 8 large for a nondescript gun and you'll get schooled when you try to sell it. Do your homework and you'll recoup your purchase price, or more.

Getting back to my original question and the meaning behind it. Is a Remington era Parker value as much as the earlier ones? That is what I was asking.
Next the price to me sounds appropriate. People here claiming they bought G, D grade Parkers for a song and a dance, well that was their luck but I don't see small gauge Graded Parkers selling cheap.
The gun is in exceptional condition. But to those skeptics find me a 20 gauge Parker G or D grade for less then send me a message here at the forum.
I can not say I have ever made much money selling guns. The ones I have now will be my Son's problem to sell, and everything he gets will be pure profit

"Getting back to my original question and the meaning behind it. Is a Remington era Parker value as much as the earlier ones?"

Again, as I stated in the first reply offered to your question, they absolutely are.
JR

[quote=Stanton Hillis]Some of y'all act like spending $8K on a shotgun is smoke up a chimney. I'll bet the farm I can get back what I paid for my $8K DHE Parker at anytime, unless there is a complete economic collapse.

The 32” two gauge set?

I’ll take it! 😊

Sorry, Charlie. Too many doves left for me to consider getting rid of Caroline. We may as well refer to her by her real name.

When I was brought out of sedation after being on a ventilator for 13 days in 2020 after my drowning accident, the first nurse I remember seeing was a young lady that is a daughter to a great hunting buddy of mine. Her name is Caroline. I remember thinking, "she is the prettiest thing I've ever seen". Later I named the Parker after her because it is the prettiest Parker I have ever seen, and told her dad so..