doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Joh. Springer's Erben - 1910 - 16 X 11.5mm(450 Cal

The Springer Kombo from 1910 arrived today & only a day late of the U.S.P.S. so I guess they are due that additional 10 cents that are adding soon?

But a little of a disappointment that the platform was originally in 1910 a 450 Kalibre and looks like in 1962/1963 it was lined to 6,6X70R??? Odd stamps of >>450.<< over >>63.<< over >>62.<< and no other stamps less the preliminary datastring & final in 1910. The frame is actually devoid of any stamps. Maybe some cobbled together effort in the early 1960s?

Fantastic period Springs's Erben Leg of Mutton Case.

Loading sticks of brass without any headstamps w/ VV N 140 for a little smoke signals tomorrow morning.

Glass is just stellar.

Again the current chambering is 6,6X70R „Bleistiftpatrone“.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

At a minimum, the barrels & tubeset were made & knitted by Stephan Schilling in Suhl.

Maybe the action was sourced from Vejprty / Weipert????

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to note that the tubeset length is 65cm.

The previous custodian was in Kodiak, Alaska & I think he had it for 8 years. He said the Springer Kombo was posted on 3 boards with one being the German Gun Collectors Association?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

F. Faukner more than likely w/ Morgenstern sourced lock
Double Gun Journal Volume 13 Issue 1 @ Page 83


Subject Springer(of the below thread)

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=662115

As I surmised, the John. Springer Kombo in 16 - 6,6X70R „Bleistiftpatrone“ was sourced from the talented mechanics in Weipert w/ a Krupp Tubeset by the most able S. Schilling.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
What does it weigh?
Mike

Ford:

8lbs on the nose for the full kit including 4X Gerard Landlicht 23 Scope(DRP).

7lbs 4 oz without the Gerard Landlicht 23 Scope.

3lbs 12 oz for the tubeset.

I am having to resize the loaded cartridges after I add the lead bullet. Is that typical?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Odd Character for >>Safe<<.

]





Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Johann Springer's Erben Vejprty sourced Kombo Sidelock - 450 Kal(11.5mm) lined to 6,6X70R „Bleistiftpatrone“.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Looks like a Robert Christ was the original custodian or case maker? I just haven't yet figured out his address.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

»450.« - Fairly Confident that this is a kalibre

»63.« Year or Diameter in mm??

»62.« Year of Diameter in mm?

A few Weipert Proofmarks....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Loading a Berdan Primed RWS stick of brass w/ 25 grains of VV N 140 resulted in a muzzle velocity of 2150 ft/s.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Note the following is for the 6,5X48R......


117 grain bullet / 23 grains Viht N-140 = 2450 bar (35530 psi) and 2234 fps

117 grain bullet / 22 grains Viht N-140 = 2130 bar ( 31470 psi) and 2144 fps

110 grain bullet / 23 grains Viht N-140 = 2270 bar ( 32914 psi) and 2250 fps
Quick Load Data Calcs or similar


»The Ql calculations impute using .264" bullets from .264" pressure test dimension barrels and .257" bullets from .257" barrels. That is not the problem here. We are talking about shooting .257" or .261" bullets from the same barrel. That barrel has a groove diameter of .257" (Leatherman's first post, I tend to believe that) to .260" ( maximum calculated from the proof marks). Shooting fitting or even slghtly undersized .257 bullets from that barrel will not rise pressures, but lower them, compared to the original .261" bullets. So I would try .257" 117 gr rn bullet first, loaded with about 22 gr VV N140.«



https://www.germanguns.com/vb5/foru...l-discussion/1399-6-3x48r-cape-gun/page2


Note the above is for the 6,5X48R


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

What a wonderful gun. I particularly like the treatment of the bolsters and top lever.

There is a Springer double rifle in 9.3x57R/360 2.25" on GunsInternational now with a similarly marked Springer case. I would have been more interested in that one if the seller could have shared any meaningful shooting data.

Congratulations! And how nice to also have the scope. I have a little Springer single that's missing its scope. Top rib looks almost silly with the bases for those snap mounts and no scope.

Chris

Yeah, the J. Springer Erben's Weipert 450 X 16 was an exception piece @ one time. It has some light exterior pitting and like you, I wish more info would have been provided. I asked for the proof marks & all I got was the Final 1910 Datastring. I don't think knowing that it was relined to 6,6X70R would have had any bearing on my purchase, but for some reason it appears to be devoid of any rework marks.



Here is a Springer Hammer DR with Belgian pattern welded tubes, which is somewhat rare. Well, rate in the fact that they left the Belgian marks on the tubes. It seems that if Springer made one in-house, they sourced Liége for components, especially tubes. But if they sourced the mechanics in Vejprty / Weipert, then tubeset was sourced from Suhl.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Annealed a few cases via a candle but there are still hairline cracks in the sticks of brass from which I am pulling the bullets & powder. Maybe they didn't notice the little buggers. But regardless, each unprepped stick of brass much be annealed down to 0.4" from the base. That's where about all of the cracked cases endI(or start). I have not seen any cracks from midway of the case to the mouth. On the cases I am pulling the bullets, the hairline cracks are between 0.4" above to about 0.7" from the base. Even the sticks of brass that followed the Springer from Kodiak to Alabama had cracks that ended between 0.5" to 0.7". Why they are cracking so low, I can't say unless that 1st burst of pressure is exactly where the case isn't fully malleable & must be properly annealed.

Loaded a couple boxer primed cases that turned out to have hairline cracks w/ 26 grains of VV N 140 & the average velocity was a little over 2100 ft/s.

I am going over the re-loaded rounds with my fingers and a loupe in an effort to search for a few cases that do not have cracks. And I am annealing them w/ a hand-torch(not flashlight). None of the Berdan primed RWS sticks of brass had or have cracks.

Accuracy w/ the Gerrad Glass is just lovely @ 30 metres of hand.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I will admit I know very little about mechanical annealers, but would a mechanical annealer reach down & pick up that area from 0.4" from the base up to about 1" from the base or does it just torch the case mouth & neck, stopping @ the neck?

On these Bertram Boxer pocket 6,5X70R sticks of brass, if you don't anneal to within 0.4" of the base, there's $5 up in smoke every time you pull the trigger. And I just don't want to start down that path. Luckily I have several cracked cases from which to learn.

For now, I don't see any way to properly anneal the case from the mouth to within 0.4" of the base without doing it by Hand?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Too, I forgot to note that the holes in the cartridge trap in the metal butt plat are 450 cartridge diameter. So the platform was built pretty stout for the 450??


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Also for ease of loadingseating the bullets, I take a 8,15X46 1/2R decapping die & just ever so slightly expand/relax the case mouth. This makes it so easy to load the long bullets.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey.
The 6.5x70 R cases take a lot of swaging and drawing out to get them as small as they are. This work hardens the brass in the body of the case pretty severely. The cases were annealed to below the neck, but seemingly not low enough (manufactures are leery of softening the heads) to prevent the splits you experienced. You will not be able to hold the cases in your bare fingers long enough to reach your target area of annealing. A possible, although slower, method of annealing the area you are interested in, is to put them into a pan of water deep enough to protect the heads and tipping them over with a rod after heating. Once you get the procedures worked out, you can speed it up by working in batches and having one of your boy's turn them over while you heat the others. It will benefit them to learn how and why we anneal, anyway. Good luck.
Mike

Good idea Ford. About how long should I apply heat? More than 15 seconds?

I haven't made any new to me brass. I have been using sticks of brass where others have been unsuccessful.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

On a good news sourcing note, I was able to track down the new Bertram Brass importer, Desert Tech Munitions, and after a lightening fast response, he assured me that in the next shipment he would request some 6,5X70R sticks of brass. A shipment just left so it will be several months before a new shipment is cobbled together.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I don't go by time, if I'm not holding the cases in bare fingers I go by color. Don't let them turn red, they will be burned. Try to catch the color you see on unfired military or civilian cartridges that have not had the color polished off. Don't count on saving burned cases. Someone else may know of a machine that will meet your needs, but I have no experience with the machines. If you go with Bertram, don't buy a pile of them, at once. Buy a few cases first and see what it will take to make them useable. I haven't used Bertram cases but from other's comments, you may need to anneal them too. Bertram's may be your best bet. If you wind up needing to modify the rims, don't consider that much of a problem. Good Luck.
Mike

I would say that buying Bertram's brass might be quite a "wager", but certainly not a "best bet".

But then, it might only be my insufficient English...

Yeah, for the moment Bertram Brass is the simplest choice for now & I haven't used any Bertram sticks of Brass that didn't already have a hairline crack.

There are several European vendors where sticks of brass could be acquired, the issue is just getting it shipped to the U.S. of A.

But I have been in contact with the small firm of Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company & they do actually list 6,6X70R as one of their staples:
https://mail.rockymountaincartridge.com/index.htm

Too, in my conversations w/ Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company, they said their sticks of Brass would be stronger than Bertrams but with just a couple folks and they have had some power issues, so they are months behind; but will get to making more. They gave that they would anneal to my requests or needs.

So any avenue is not an easy path @ the moment but as always the >>Glory is in the Struggle.<<

I thought about obtaining some >>Tempilaq<< just to see what temp I could safely achieve.

My Parachute Option is just to drop by Ford's House & let the Master Annealer temper a few.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

That's enuff for Amurricans.
Lightning fast responses, and verbal assurances.

Sure.

Indeed, & in 6 months Desert Tech Munitions will be saying the same thing about the shipment.

I resized a few sticks of Bertram Brass and after resizing the Overall Length turned out to be 74 1/4mm. I used a little Imperial Wax, but I think RCBS Case Lube is a skosh better. Zero issues in a staged resizing effort.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
When you say "resized", do you mean fired cases? If so, something is wrong with the 74.25 mm OAL. Even if it was virgin brass, I'm surprised by the length. Be sure to trim to length before loading it.
Mike

Ford:

No, just resizing straight out of the Betram box with a Die. Many times when you resize the stick of Brass grows a little & I just want to trim to length only once. Then I will fireform and make one last measurement.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Alright Ford, with your novel suggestions, I think I have overcome the case splitting issue. The key is to get the sticks of Bertram Brass quite colourful down to about 9mm from the top of the base of the stick of Brass. Now it still appears that if there is the slightest crack in the case. from a previous shot, the case will crack even further. I try to find all the cracks on the cases, that came with each gun, in the brass with my fingernails & then mark them w/ a Sharpie to see what happens.

I took a couple sticks of Bertram Brass, Aluminum Pie Plate and a cup of water, along with a hand-torch(not flashlight). I marked the cases @ 9mm up from the top of the Base and set the cases vertikal in the Pie Plate. Next I filled the Pie Plate with water up to the marks. Then a Brisk Torch Effort trying to rotate around the cases from the water up to about 1" from the Base. It takes a time or two of tippin' over in the water before that colourful pattern appears.

And I have done some off-hand shooting thru a Chrony.

27 Grains of VV N140 nicely fills the case & along with a 130 grain Cast Lead Bullet w/ Gas Check nets an average velocity around 2250 ft/s in the O/U Springer.

For the exact same Load with a bit more effort in resizing after loading, the Bradler & Lachmann in Graz Borovlje Cape produced an average velocity of 2300 on the nose.

So now I can start to load for each 6,5X70R Platform & there individual idiosyncrasies.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Just for comparison's fun, I looked up the retail prices from "shm" (Süddeutsche Hülsenmanufaktur, that's Mr. Zirngibl in Schierding). The 6,5x70R clocks at 4,34 €. Expensive in my opinion, but they enjoy the opposite reputation of crappy Bertram, namely a very good one.

Their 6,5x58R are at 4,12 €, the 7x72R at 3,66 €, the 8x57 R360 at 3,12 € and the 8x58R at 3,53 €.

The former Horneber case production closed in 2021, and has been acquired by Reimer Johannsen, but I am not currently informed inhowfar and for which calibers they still continue.

Indeed, they are most expensive and you can have your sticks of Brass turned from a single piece of Brass Stock @ Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company @ $122/20 sticks. But a Bit of an UpHill Battle with them as they think they know more about the 6,5X70R and say I have an enlarged chamber so they won't turn the cases until I send a fire-formed Case. Not a Big Deal, but an additional $28 plus whatever shipping costs.

And it is the Cost that makes me Pause & use the Cracked Cases of Others, before I ignite a New Stick of Brass. I have resized & trimmed a few from 74,5mm cases, but that's it. I have quite a supply of 0.366" Cast Lead Bullets w/ Gas Check, but I wonder what I might use had I not had those? I guess a call to Northern Precision Custom Bullets and hence, yet another expense?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

But back to RWS & the 6,5X70R Berdan Primer Pocket sticks of Brass, why would they make the Berdan version? Surely it couldn't be cheaper to make a Berdan Case vs a Boxer Case? I wouldn't think Europe reloads too many Berdan Cases?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Should one have the desire to shoot some very expensive ammo, some sites have the 6,5X70R @ $100 / round:

https://collectibleammunition.com/product/6-5x70r-rws-6-5x70r/

I guess it has a spezial powder or something?????

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Most likely a small-scale commercial Waffen-Dorfner load (Austria) with Dieter Horneber cases from the earlier 2000s years.
And most likely a pack of 10.

Raimey,
OK, you more or less answered my questions. I glean from your answers that Bertram likely doesn't anneal and trim their cases to length prior to shipping. There is no way a proper 6.5x70R case could stretch to 74.5mm in the first sizing. When making some of my own cases I depend on the stretching and would be happy with half that much. Bertram cases are expensive enough to buy but your experience with cracks in their new cases means the actual cost for useable cases is much higher. You asked why RWS would sell Berdan primed cases, I don't know if they do, but if so, it would be to use "on hand" production equipment rather than setting up expensive new facilities for a few cases. Your procedure for annealing with the water in a pie plate is pretty much what I was suggesting. You might find it convenient to have one of your boys to tip the cases over while you wield the torch if you are annealing a batch of cases rather than individual ones. Trimming 74.5 mm cases to length by hand takes a lot of time and effort, it would help a lot if you saw most of it off first. I use a horizontal/vertical band saw, but it is hard to get a straight cut. I think a small (3or4") cut off saw from Harbor Freight would be a better choice if you don't need something for general machine shop work (and cheaper too). The $100 per round ammo is collector ammo, not shooting ammo. There is no way a shooter that needs multiple rounds can compete with a collector that needs only one (I'm also a collector and have to be satisfied with a fired case instead of that price). As far as turned cases are concerned, I explored them for some of my other projects and decided against them because the grain structure of turned brass is not as appropriate as drawn brass. The only way it would work at all for my projects was because they were large enough to have very thick walls and 6.5x70R cases would have very little space for powder. As far as the load you found, it seems to be pretty much like the factory load (except with a cast bullet). The other good news is, if the cast bullets (.266") prove unsatisfactory, your larger diameter barrel will take American standard 6.5mm nominal bullets without having to resize them as I have to do with my German barrels. You may need a lighter spitzer bullet to avoid exceeding the length of the original factory bullet, but that would allow a little higher velocity.
Mike

He didn't ask that.
He asked why DWM (and possibly, but much less likely RWS) still produced Berdan-primed cartridge cases at a time, when virtually *ALL* European hunting cartridges were still Berdan-primed.

Good grief.
What an astounding *surrrrpriiiiise* !

Now Ford, I haven't cracked any newly formed cases as I am trying to learn on the previous cracked case effort by others.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I misunderstood your previous post; I thought you were checking new Bertram cases for cracks to avoid wasting time on cracked ones. For the life of me I don't understand how the person you got fired cases from could have actually used ammo with 74.5mm long cases. Learning from the mistakes of others (I have made plenty) is the right thing to do, to avoid them yourself.

When Berdan cases were the standard, they were practically the same cost as boxer cases would have been. The savings would be in the primers themselves, in making and placing the anvils, which wouldn't be necessary with Berdan cases.
Mike

Ford, I did a bit more examining & a new Bertram stick of 6,5X70R Brass, unformed, unfinished, measures between 71-72 mm. But when you resize a new stick of Bertram 6,5X70R Brass, it expands to right @ 74mm. So it is entirely possible I picked up a stick that had been resized and nothing more.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Formed and annealed a handful of new Bertram 6,5X70R sticks of brass and shot a few this morning. Didn't have any cracks in the newly formed and annealed sticks of brass, so it appears I have mitigated the crack issue w/ novel annealing.

The Springer had an average velocity around 2250 ft/s w/ the 130 grain cast lead bullet w/ gas check ahead of 27 grains of VV N140

And the right side mount Bradler and Lachmann Borovlje Biks had a velocity of 2300 ft/s with the same load as above.
.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ford:

Would you anneal, then resize & trim or Resize & Trim then Anneal?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Ok, that answers what I was wondering about Bertram cases and why there are so many complaints about them. It seems that, at least for 6.5x70 R and maybe some others, they are not selling ready to use cases, but rather basic cases to be formed into cartridge specific cases. That is ok as long as it is understood that significant work will be required to make useable cases; in fact, this is useful to know when forming cases for other similar cartridges.
Mike

Yeah Ford, there is not a Head Stamp.... Blank....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Shot a handful of rounds this morning thru the Springer & obtained an average velocity of 2220 ft/s. The more I reload the smaller the velocity band/deviation gets.

Too, in order to anneal down to say 9mm, the water lever over the bases needs to be around 5mm.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

After looking at the cases I inherited, about 1/2 of the cracked Cases had not been shot & were cracked during the resizing effort. The reason I know is that there were some 74-75mm cases, some of them loaded, that have cracks & I am pretty sure those will not chamber.

Velocity w/ 130 grain lead cast bullet & 27 grains of VV N140 is about spot on 2200 m/s.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

So Ford, before I ruin any new cases, would you anneal the unformed raw cases, which typically have a uniform diameter of 0.3" and a length of 71-72mm?

Anneal; then trim; then resize; then trim a final time?

What would Ford do?

Now I have loaded cases that I carry with me that are seasoned and perform well, but I want to perfekt the process converting Bertram raw, unformed cases to correct form so that I don't waste any sticks of brass.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

A reasonable person would buy good cases from the beginning.

A valid point indeed, 7,35 Carcano. 1st, I am not a reasonable person & 2nd, these are the cards of which I nave been dealt for the moment. I have RWS >>Good Cases<<, but I do not have the 5,5mm Berdan Good Case primers to go with them. I am working on sourcing different cases, but that's requires a trip to Germany or an extended wait of 6 months for a machinist to tool up & convert some brass bar stock.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I certainly do not badmouth the RWS Berdan cases. I only know why the Blue Bible itself - the RWS reloading handbook - warned against using them.

Raimey,
I would anneal, size, trim, fireform, measure (trim if necessary), neck-size and load. Drop by the next time you get a chance. There is no telling where you might find some 5.5mm Berdan primers. With cases as rare as 6.5x70 R, everyone has to use whatever can be found. There is a way to convert 5.5mm Berdan primer pockets to .210" Boxer, but I haven't needed to try it. I think the best cases would be 6x70R, but I don't know of a reliable source.
Mike

Thanks Ford & I exactly know where there might be some 5,5mm Berdan Primers , but I'd rather keep that as my parachute/ripcord last resort. I have 3 different chambers to stuff, so I wanted to make the ammo fit the toughest one & go from there.

But I will gladly try to drop by soon.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Regarding the much maligned RWS Berdan sticks of Brass by the ole >>Blue Book<<, I had zero issues pressing them into service so empirically they worked flawlessly.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Getting down to the last few loaded cartridges I inherited, so only a few more bullets to pull, I decided to press Ford's protocol of putting fire forming the sticks of brass in the equation. And only with 11 grains of Red Dot and a column of Grits, cracks or fissures still reveal themselves in the area of 9mm above the rim up to 25 mm above the rim. Therefore, @ this juncture, I really don't think the loaded cases are faltering under pressure but are just exacerbating the fine fissure as a result from converting the stick of raw brass to final form. Just a thought, but again the issue still could be 2 pronged.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Although many naysayers say why travel down this path, and several have and actually capitulated in defeat, but it has been a wild and informative ride in getting to the core issue & identifying it. As the old adage can be said, >>The Glory is in the Struggle<< and this one has been most informative. I guess adhering to the basic premise of making cases and annealing them properly is at the nexus of the actual solution. One the issue is identified, the Solution is Simple, of course. With >>Fire Forming<< being a critical component in the process, being a benchmark of sorts, to tell you where you are before you exhaust more effort on a compromised case.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Make cases for each of your 3 chambers and keep them separate. Then, you can neck size (partially size) to be easier on the hard-won cases. If you reduce the fireforming load from 11 grains Red Dot to the minimum necessary to form the cases, you might save some cases. The straight 6.5x70R cases shouldn't need much forming. Are you using a filler in the fireforming loads? Filler with a lighter load is easier on the cases than powder alone. There is no formula, you have to try and change the load, depending on the result.
If it were easy, it wouldn't be fun and you wouldn't learn nearly as much. This particular cartridge has fewer options for donor brass than any that I know of. If you can locate cases for the relatively modern Einstecklaufs chambered in 6x70R your job would be much easier and the cases would be better. I suggest you query the makers of these devices; they likely make few but will surely test and sight in some of the ones they do make. Also, gunsmiths that sight them in likely have a box containing misc. fired cases, possibly including what you are looking for, under their work bench or at the range. I found a considerable amount of useful brass from similar sources when I lived in Germany, but the 6x70 R was not in use then. Maybe some of your European friends would be willing to ask gunsmiths in their home area for cases.
Good Luck,
Mike

Sure Ford, I could lower the fire-forming a bit but I prefer a nice crack with the column of Grits going down the tube behind a wad of poly or Kabok Tree, which actually looks like Cotton in Nature. Plus, it nicely ferrets out the evil fissures in the sticks of converted brass. But then again, I am @ the end of someone else's effort. So now on to my 1/2 dozen sticks I have converted & loaded for bear.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Well, I have annealed 10 Betram raw sticks of Brass, trimmed them, converted them using RCBS lube & Imperial Wax, fire-formed them w/ 11 grains of Red Dot & a Column of Grits and I have had ZERO fissures or cracked cases. Now I can't say how hard the rims/bases are, but for the moment I am toppin' High Cotton. But the cases are as ugly as home-made soap.

I do prefer RCBS lube to Imperial Wax though.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Wolfgang did some great sleuthing via pseudo Künstlich I(KI)/AI on the platform Gemini and it was able to read the case label. Barrister Robert Christ obtained his Sheepskin for his JD in 1907 and lived @ Hietzinger Hauptstraße 124, 13th District(Hietzing), Vienna until 1939. He was a writer & playwright. He purchased the Weipert made Kombo in 1910.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Seems imgbox.com has bit the dust..... None of my images are visible.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Also, when I finish monkeying around w/ the sticks of Brass in the evolution of it all, I like to soak the cases in a solution of Oxy Clean before I do the final loading.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Seems IMGBOX.com is almost a Phoenix from the Ashes????

Too, I use a little Lighter Fluid to clean each case after resizing & all.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Last few 6,5X70R cases with 27 grains VV N 140 & 130 grain bullet. I know, I know, they are as ugly as homemade sin, but they must be annealed to about 9mm up from the rim.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

As a sidenote, but for sure still in the same vein, the 6,5X70R Alpine Round( >>„Bleistiftpatrone = pencil cartridge“ for the Bradler and Lachmann Biks needs to be slightly resized @ the base(I believe) in order to close it. So the Bradler & Lachmann must have a slightly tighter chamber.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
You might check the rim diameter and/or thickness also.
Mike

From KI-„Künstliche Intelligenz“/AI, in the 1960s - 1970s, RWS took note of the reloading craze both in Europe & the U.S. of A. and gradually phased out Berdans and phased in Boxer in their Hunting & Targer Shooting line of products.

It also stated that Berdan cases were cheaper to produce in volume¿¿¿¿


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I checked the rim dims and all are the same. You can take a fire-formed, and loaded, round for the Springer and full length resize it and it will drop in the Bradler and Lachmann Biks. But that right side mount scope is still a pain to attach & unattach.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I posted this up top fishing in a deeper hole, but here it is where it was supposed to be.



With assistance from Gemini via KI-„Künstliche Intelligenz“/AI(Pseudo), Wolfgang was easily able to find that the »Cresent Moon« was an across the board symbol for safety; noting safe or dormant under the moon. I guess every mechanic knew the symbol but it was news to me?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Turns out the glass atop the J. Springer's Erben Kombo is a Gerard >>Landlicht 23<< 4X, which was a trade brand or subsidiary of Gerard & is sometimes stamped as Landlicht Ziefernrohrbau Berlin. The Nr. 23 evidently refers to a Modell # and just may have been for the year 1923.

So my question is did Herr Robert Christ send the Kombo back in 1923 to have glass added or was it added in the 1960s when the 6,5X70R barrel liner was installed? If it was installed in 1923, I am sure it had to be adjusted in the 1960s for the 6,5X70R.

I will post additional images since imgbox is still AWOL, if anyone is interested.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Also in the mix is the use of the 450 Express. The Kombo passed proof in 1910. The 450 Express was Rigby's brainchild in1898 by utilizing Cordite as a propellent. By 1907/1908 the Brits banned the use of 450 Express in Hunting platforms in India & the Sudan to keep the locals from shooting back @ them w/ captured military rifles. 450/500 morphed to 465/500. Would a 450 Express have been a good choice in 1910?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Neuberger gives that unequivocally that the J. Springer's Erben Kombo is a Morgenstern and that the serial number of 5069 is that of Morgenstern & mates quite nicely, for 1910, with Neuberger's Spring 2002 serial number list below:



With the close of WWII and the Communist takeover in February 1948, much info was lost to the ravages of time. ALL the gunshops under Communist Control were nationalized and mechanics could continue in their craft if they joined a cooperative. Should they chose otherwise, they were forced to manual labour, or lower level work, and if they continued to be obstinate, they were jailed as a gunsmith from Olomouc received a 17 year sentence and served 8 years before being released.

These Morgenstern Kombos of Vejprty/Weipert are the ideal platform for stalking, and harvesting, Roe-Deer and small sized game found in the hunting haunts of Central Europe. Few, if any, other platforms hold a candle to these Fantastic Weipert Beauties.

For the moment, how the Kombo migrated from 450 to 6,5X70R, escapes me.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

the Austrians and Germans had their own versions of the .450 and .500 BPE cartridges, differing in case shape, case lengths and maybe other things. There was plenty of large game in the Austro-Hungarian empire, no need to consider hunting in faraway colonies or what the Brits were up to.

By the 1960s the 6,5x70R was obsolete, certainly in Germany. I think it is not very probable that the barrel liner was installed as late as 1962.

Your first photographs on page 1 of this thread are gone, can you show these again?

fuhrmann

Of course:












»Kimme und Korn«....










Lovely LOM Case to hold it all.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Any idea if the 450 was BPE or Nitro Express in 1910? Would there have been much adjustment on the »Kimme und Korn« or scope going from 450 to 6,5X70R?


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Germany and Austria never had their own .450 and .500 Nitro Express versions

See the last post by kuduae / Axel E. in the linked thread or more details

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=399399&an=0&page=0#Post399399

Thanks for the pictures. Are there any further proof marks to tell the story of the gun?

I can't comment regarding sight adjustment. But I think that compared to the cost of an insert barrel a new "Kimmenblatt" is a minor effort.

I have smoked it over with a loupe & there just aren't anymore on the tubeset. And the frame & water-table is devoid of any marks. I have not pulled the locks or the metal buttplate yet. Seems a story masked for the moment, but possible lost due to the ravages of time.


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

You must login to see the info:

>>last week I had the pleasure to inspect a hammer double rifle with an underlever opener to the right hand side. It is marked on one side plate with "Joh. Springer´s Erben in Wien"
and on the other side plate "K. u. K. Hammer Gewehr Lieferanten" = royal hammer rifle manufacturer

It is very elaborate in embellishment and has a small stock plate silver? with a crown.
The functioning and fitting is very good, there are also some time-consuming details in the making:
front post and rear sight are in a matching blue color from heat treatment, there is a small diopter post inlay on the upper wrist side, all screws are decorated with embellishment, and the visible screw slots are in line, etc.

The barrels are of 64cm length and have on the flats the serial no. 91xx and proof marks of austria (eagle and shield with a cross).

There is another number also on the flats, which might correspond (partly) to the barrel diameter:
1150.01

Directly on one barrel, not on the flats, there is one number stamped: 24.01.11 .4
which might be a production date of the barrels and the 4 ? I do not know.

The rifle has a shallow profile in the twist which would match the use of lead bullets.

There was no other information or paperwork connected, only one box of ammunition by the manufacturer
"Dorfner, Wien" with the caliber designation ".450 Express / 60 ",
which seems a little bit odd, because
- if the rifle was a .450 Black Powder Express, the case should measure 3 1/4" in length,
but the measurement on the ammunition case is 60mm case length.
- the light weight of the rifle = 3050 grams 6 1/2 lbs indicates a stalking rifle for small game like roe deer, which does not need the power of a full .450 BP Express.

If anyboday can bring more information about the cartridge or other interesting details I would be very delighted!<<

From the serial number from 1901 it sounds like it was sourced from a maker other than Springer's Erben.

Post by Axel E. referencing Dixon:

>>The 11.6x60 R aka 450 Short was not uncommon in central Europe, especially in the realms of the Austro-Hungarian empire. As the cases have the 14 mm base of the British .450, cases for the American .45-90 are much too thin for reforming. Nearly ideal would be RWS cases for the old 10.3 x 60 R aka .450-400 2 3/8” BPE.
Quote from W.B.DIXON’s book European Sporting cartridges:<<


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Now I did not mention the German Preliminary Proofmarks like Imperial Eagle, S and Kruupscher Stahl, Script Gothic SS from the Schilling forge, etc.

The bore stamp of >>11.5<< is still present.

But there is not a 6,5X70R mark on it no where...... And there's not another gunmaking centre that would install a 6,5X70R barrel.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

It will not require a "gunmaking centre" to install an insert barrel. A skilled mechanic can do that.
I Know a gunsmith nearby who has done this until recently in his one-man shop.

And then, depending on location and circumstances, avoid the last step of sending the piece to the proof house?

No, no, no, I was referring to the chambering of the 6,5X70R. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was about the only place that had a 6,5X70R cult like following.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

I don't think the term "Lieferanten" on the Springer means manufacturer, rather I think it means "deliverer" (dealer). Markings on the rifle (other than re-proofs, if found) have little meaning concerning the 6.5x70R liner. Absent re-proofs, when and where the liner was installed cannot be determined.
Mike

Not really.
You know Alfred Ungewitter from Gut Roßdorf, do you?!

He doesn't come to mind, but with the availability of ammo so scarce, it would seem the Austro-Hungarian Empire has the components.

I have only seen 1/2 dozen to a dozen rifles chambered in 6.5X70R, almost all were either from Ferlach or the mechanics in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

The Preliminary Data String values are what the final stamps are, just from 1910:

734.10.C.16.2.11.5

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Here you are. Glad to further the discussion. Researching him was fun; but ultimately, only the contemporary journals will help.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ds=Ungewitter&Search=true#Post664546

I had mentioned it about a month ago, in passing:

Julius Springer was not a mere Hoflieferant (purveyor to the Court), of which there were thousands in Austria-Hungary. He was a KAMMERLIEFERANT, who comprised a very tiny number altogether, and as such he was, in a way, more aristocratic than many courtiers.

Let me exemplify it a bit more colourfully:
Anybody who delivers toilet paper and toilet brushes to the Hofburg, to attend to the large amount of shit from the large workforce of the court, can be a Hoflieferant.
But only a Kammerlieferant can knock at the august private rest room door and ask the Emperor to finish his solitary session now, so that he may come in and change the toilet paper roll.

Carcano