doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com another gun fit point of impact ?

So a friend let me shoot his CSM 21, I think hoping I would buy it. At first look it seemed perfect for what I wanted a heavy 20 ga target gun. 30" barrels, well balanced, good stock dimensions for me. It seemed like I was looking right down the rib. Should be perfect. I tried it and couldn't hit with it, 10 out of 30 targets. I patterned it as best I could without a plate, just put up a piece of cardboard against a tree. It seems more than 50% of pattern is below point of aim. I have a laser tool for testing poi and tried it when home and it seems if I mount the gun but leave my head more erect the pattern is about 60/40. I have wanted a 30" barreled 20 ga over 7 lbs for clays but not sure I want to try and adapt my shooting style. I am open to advice. The gun is a fancy Grade 5, but that doesn't hit clays.

You have wisely taken advantage of an opportunity to try out a gun before buying it, which most don't get a chance to do. Having found it unsuitable, trust your judgment, count your blessings, and pass on it.

If you are “looking right down the rib” it should put up to 50% of the pattern below the POI. Some folks like that.

For some reason that does not make sense to me 30” M21’s 20 gauges always seem to shoot lower than expected. I’ve owned several and they all did. It’s even mentioned in the m21 book. The factory barrel makers called it “putting up” the barrels which was an acceptable way of saying bending them.

The good thing about a SXS is that you can get your head position well over the barrels and not lose “barrel reference” like you do with an O/U.

On any SXS I suggest very closely checking barrel convergence prior to buying. It’s amazing how many do not shoot to the same point.

I was told by a very knowledgeable, old time SXS competition shooter that Winchester chokes were always on the open side so that differences in barrel impacts were harder to detect. Example, Winchester full choke in a m21 12 ga were .031-.033 where as a Browning of the same vintage is often over .040.

A number of years ago I had CSM make me a 21 two barrel set. A 20/28 gauge set. I could not hit the side of the barn with the 20 gauge set. I sold it.

a solution to the problem you describe is to move your grip on the forend back a bit...that will make the gun shoot higher for you...

Can you explain how that works?

I can deal with a gun that shoots high - at least a little.

A gun that shot low would be a hard no for me, regardless of how pretty it was, or how well it fit the rest of specs.

50/50 is "shooting flat". You said that it seemed to print a bit more than 50% under POA. That's not good. I love a gun that shoots 60/40 (60% of the pattern above the POA). For my shooting style that works very, very well. I refuse to shoot a gun that patterns higher than 70/30, which would require "floating the bird" above the muzzle to some degree. That is not good for consistently good shooting either, as the amount you have to float it changes as the distance to the bird changes. Please keep in mind that I am excluding the game of trap from this conversation, in which a "built in lead" is desired by most, as the birds are all rising.

The simplest solution to make it pattern a little higher is to build up the comb a bit, where your cheek contacts the comb (DAC). That is very easy to do with moleskin, which can be layered to build it up incrementally.

What ed good suggested may actually work, as it lessens the leverage against the gun's muzzle flip. However, I don't like the idea of making myself to fit the gun. . . . much better to make the gun to fit me. When you have to remember to grip this gun here, and the next gun there, it's just not a good recipe for sustainable success with a shotgun .

Richard Hale's first reply above is excellent, and very well said, with much truth.