doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Another rare double

And now for something completely different...

Yeah, a neat & very rare Gustav Kersten offering under DRP #141334(DE141334 if you want to search yourself). Gustav Kersten was a relative of Dietrich Apel.

https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kersten-gustav/

„Drehblockverschluss für mehrläufge Gewehre mit Festliegenden Läufen“









Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

It is impressive to see the real *origin* of the LATER and well-known incarnation of the so-called Kerstenverschluss, which soon simply became a double Greener.
It's like studying paleontology. :-) Like, you mean THIS CRITTER was the first "horse"?!

That one is also impressively overengineered. Basically, a light artillery piece with a reluctant wooden interface to humans.

Carcano

6,35 Carcano:

I would have to pull the other DRPs for Kersten namely #192183, #201507 and no. #217832, but for the moment I a quite confident that DRP #41334 was Gustav Kersten's 1st attempt @ a Behemoth vertikal Tabernacle Lock(vault) variant??

There are a couple DRGMs mind you, but I don't think they are this complicated.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Just a generic question: if tubeset extension is in the centre, it is defined as a Greener. If the tubeset extension w/ circular cross bar is flanked on each side, it is a Kersten. But if the extension is to one side only is it still defined as a Greener?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Most definitely yes.

So Greener's contribution to a tube extension lockup is a single extension with a circular or square hole anywhere along the interface of the action - tubeset?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

That's how we see it in Central Europe.

P.S.: Central Europe extends to Lemberg and Czernowitz in the Southeast, and Reval in the Northeast (plus many manor houses).
That's about the maximum extent. (Ultra sunt leones...)

Carcano

If not Dragons; in the event you don't encounter Dragons, you fall off the edge of the world.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Get your bids in lads; just a couple hours left...


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Interesting that the 9,3X74R is noted by a plug gauge diameter stamp of 108/49.... Had to be made right @ 1910.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

You know, I have pondered on that 108/49 Plug Gauge Stamp & I wonder if that is a large enough diameter to be the 9,3X74R; but maybe the 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Sold, whatever it is, for $1980.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Plug Gauge 108/49 would equate to 0.350".

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

108/49 most often results in a groove diameter of about .362"(using a cast bullet of around .364"). This will work with either 9.3x74R or 9.3x72R Sauer and Sohn. A chamber cast will be necessary to determine the chambering; even then the dimensions are so similar that the rifling twist might need to be determined to verify the choice (the S+S cartridge used a 185-grain bullet calling for a slower twist rifling), as some 9.3x74R cartridges may chamber in some 9.3x72R S+S Rifles.
Mike

Great Info Ford and that was for which I was searching.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Yep ... I bought it ... I inquired if it was in fact a 9.3x74R before bidding. And they said yes ... "9.3x74R" ... NOT 9.3x72R ... Since I shoot everything, I wanted to be sure ... I will not be shooting max loads since it is a single barrel, and doesn't need to regulate like a 9.3x74R double rifle.

I didn't know it was talked about here on Double Gun ....I did buy it ... but .. Unfortunately .. it cost $2157 with all the fees ... delivered ... update from doing a chamber cast and and field shooting test to follow. I should receive it later this week.

If I had noticed you were bidding, I would have bid......

But the difference between the 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn and the 9,3X74R are subtle. 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn is not the 9,3X72R with which everyone is familiar. Ford has stoked and ignited a handfull of 9,3X74R in a 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Pictures in the listing show Norma 9.3x74R cartridges in the chamber and cartridge trap. Close inspection will show if either has been modified. But, that's a pretty snappy cartridge for a gun that's 116 years old. Perhaps that's why the stock was damaged and repaired. I have lots of Big Bores so there is no need for me to Max out the loading. I want to have fun shooting the rifle, not damaging it.

Again, a 9,3X74R will chamber into a 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn without modification. But a chamber cast will always ferret out the demon cartridge.

it is good to see that someone on the board made the acquisition.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

This early Kersten contraption is a fascinating gun. Almost as ugly as a Winchester 1887 (which, by the way, was successfully used in Germany back then, when hunters when not quite as reactionary and backwards as they are today...).
It reminds me of the Terminator, in a way....

Hello,
I have been looking for drawings to show the difference between the 2 cartridges, but cannot find a drawing for the Sauer 9.3x74r .. do you, or anyone, have a drawing that I can use to compare to a chamber cast?

buckstix,
I don't have drawings, but the head diameter of 9.3x74R is supposed to be.468" (usually smaller) vs. .473" (I don't have original cases to check original dia.) for the S+S, and the S+S case is 2mm (nominal) shorter than the 74R. My own 9.3x72R S+S will chamber 9.3x74 R cartridges because the cases are heavily crimped into the crimping groove of the bullet, allowing it to enter the shorter chamber. I found out early that it would not shoot bullets longer than the 286-grain round nose. It was not until I came home to the US and started handloading ammo with shorter 250 grain spitzer bullets that I discovered that a 250-grain bullet would not enter a 9.3x74R case fired in that rifle but would enter a case fired in my Heym double rifle. I now just shorten the cases 2mm and load them with 9.3x74R dies and charge weight. It should be noted that proof marks included the bore diameter, but not case length. Also, it was obvious that a 9.3x72R normalizert case is way too small diameter for the chamber.
Mike

Thank you ... we are talking about the 9.3x74R Sauer ... not the 9.3x72R Sauer .. correct?

Hmm. I have never heard of a specific "9,3x74R Sauer", as opposed to the normal and rather common 9,3x74R.
Quite different from the shouldered 9,3x72R Sauer, opposed to its three other different, although namesake, non-shouldered incarnations (namely E, D, and Norm.).

Neither is a 9,3x74R Sauer mentioned in the (fairly authoritative) list of the many various Sauer cartridges, here:
https://germanhuntingguns.com/the-j-p-sauer-sohn-cartridges/

But I could well be wrong, so kindly educate me.

Weidmannsheil,
Carcano

Indeed, 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn vs 9,3X74R.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

https://germanhuntingguns.com/the-j-p-sauer-sohn-cartridges/





Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the reply.

Is it true that the 9.3x72R Sauer is a much "less powerful" cartridge than the modern 9.3x74R cartridge? I can find no ballistic info for the 9.3x72R Sauer.
I hope to have a chamber cast on Friday to determine the actual caliber of the rifle barrel.

Right off I for one do not have any ballistic data on it but I would >>assume<< it was >>less powerful<< that the 9,3X74R. But this situation is the perfekt storm where the flats are marked w/ just a diameter „108/49“ and the few brave souls have been feeding it 9,3X74R ammo, for which it may very well be chambered, but it is actually the 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn. Just too many unknowns and not being stamped in mm and „9,3X74R“, which would have been the case post circa 1910, to just blindly keep feeding it a healthy diet 9,3X74R cartridges and pulling a >>Ford<<.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

buckstix,
There is/was no common 9.3X74R Sauer +Son. The 9.3X72R Sauer +Son is mostly known through various collector's publications which show some dimensions (bullet diameter shown by collectors is sometimes smaller than the actual diameter because of measuring the portion of the bullet outside the case of a scarce sample of the cartridge, which would be damaged if the bullet was pulled to measure it), but seldom show ballistic data. One well known publication has ballistic data for many cartridges, but sometimes shows incorrect data or dimensions, and even it has nothing, but bullet weight shown. It is my unsolicited opinion that you can shoot your rifle by loading ammunition with common 9.3x74 R cases that have been trimmed by 2 mm, and the 193-grain bullet intended for the 9.3x72R normalizert or other shorter 9.3 bullets. In deference to the age of your rifle, conservative powder charges should be used. You can use normal 9.3x74R dies adjusted to partially size the cases to just "kiss" the shoulder, to prevent head separation. With your experience loading for double barrel rifles, any load that gives groups satisfactory to you will likely be "correct" one. Have fun.
Mike

Like I said, I hope to have a chamber cast on Friday to determine the actual caliber of the rifle barrel.

buckstix,
A chamber cast is great, but a lot of times it isn't possible to discover what the maker of a rifle intended to call the cartridge it was chambered for. It doesn't make much difference anyway because you likely can't buy ammunition for it at the local "Mall Mart" or "Hook and Bullet" store. You will likely have to load it yourself or pay someone else to load it for you. This is because considering tolerances the dimensions of the two cartridges in consideration (one of which is unavailable and you have expressed reasonable hesitation to use modern loads for the other) overlap one another. Since you have cases and bullets that will fit or can be modified to fit, you can make useable cartridges and call them whatever name you like. It seems to me that you have another fun project on your hands. Whatever you come up with will be instructive to the rest of us. Enjoy.
Mike

Yes, this will be a fun project. Based on the 400+ sets of dies that I own, I'll make something work. Gun hould arrive today .. chamber cast to follow.

Hello all,

The gun arrived and I did a chamber cast .. its exactly a 9.3x74R ... not the Sauer cartridge ... So does this give any idea of when this gun was made? Would such a powerful cartridge be in use is a rifle with this action? Interesting is that the rifling starts about an inch beyond the the case mouth. Looks like long heavy bullets could be used?

** update .... I just measured the twist rate. Best I could come up with is 1 in 10. Searching the internet says standard twist rate for the 9.3x74R is 1 in 14 ... But the new Ruger No. 1 also has a twist rate of 1 in 10. So, heavy bullets should shoot just fine in this rifle. A field test should tell.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/9.3x74r-cast.jpg

The platform passed proof say in 1909 or 1910, but not after as in 1911/1912 the Plug Gauge Designation was dropped & mm was added. Plus it is a German inland and it doesn't wear a Nitro Stamp for the 16 bore scattergun.

With all the controversy with who was @ the Helm and who had what advancements, changes in management was often till all the litigation was sorted.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thanks,

After I cleaned and greased and oiled all the inners, this thing locks up like a bank vault. It weighs in at 8-1/2 pounds, and now lives in a take-down case.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/cased-cape-a.jpg

Nice effort on the ID and this proves that indeed, the 9,3X74R was under the "108/49" Plug Gauge Umbrella.

Also, Fantastic Effort on the Case as a Custodian giving the Ugly Duckling a Place of Respect & providing a Good Home for the unique German Mousetrap(Büchflinte).


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

A little faster than normal twist is better than slower.
Mike

I have a soft spot in my heart for giving an Ugly Duckling an appreciative new home. Here is one I bought in back 2013. The year before I bought it, the gun received an award for ... "The Most Innovative Design" ... which is better than an award for it being ... "The Ugliest Design." It is truly Ugly to many, but it shoots pretty good. This Stendebach is glad that I bought the Cape Gun so it has a new friend.

This is my 8x57R cal double built by Friedrich Stendebach in 1913. This Small Bore Double weighs 8-1/2 pounds, and has a really strange action.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/stenda1.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/stenda4.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/stenda5.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/stenda7.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/stenda91.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/stenda93.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/ad.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/stendacase.jpg


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/award3.jpg



a target from the Stendebach field test

http://buckstix.com/buckpics/stentarg.jpg

.
.

This French Mouse Trap, noted as a Saint Étienne scattergun, popped up on a chat recently.


Hochachtungsvoll,
Raimey
rse

I find it interesting that over time there was a connection between Vierordt & Cie., and Gustav Kersten, and then Friedrich Stendebach. I am fortunate to own rifles by these makers. It seem like during these times in Germany, many makers were trying to come up with a better "Mouse Trap."

Astute Observation. And not only that, but mechanics were trying to protect their novel ideas and everyone was in a >>Rat Race<< to develope & market the Best Sporting Weapons Platform. Almost all didn't want to pony up an APUN(Royalties) to any British Maker like Anson & Deeley or H&H. The mechanics wanted to wait until the Patent Protection Period had passed and then copy & modify it to their whims, all the time trying to convince their client & end user that they had the „Best Mouse Trap“. So many times the author of the novel idea would try to file for Patent Protection in the Countries where the end users were most likely to reside. Like anything else, as you well know, copying a novel idea & having it made as cheaply as possible by say the Belgian Mechanics padded their Bottom Dollar. Just basic competition. Jaeger's Herold and Gustav Kersten's bulky design are two fine examples and they were related of course.

Hochachtungsvoll,
Raimey
rse

The unique Vierordt & Compagnie of which you are the current custodian was greatly pressing the Sporting Weapons >>Envelope<< being the lasted and greatest with a new fangled 9,3X74R semi-smokeless round and the client & end user had to be convinced to accept such & press it into service. The Austrians & Bohemians were so, so slow in being swayed and held steadfast to older, proven technology. Ferlach platforms will still be found as hammerguns with metal buttplates well after the 1st Major Disagreement in Europe. The custodians wanted to see the hammers function & use the metal buttplate to bludgeon their quarry.

Hochachtungsvoll,
Raimey
rse

The DRP date is 1903 & the 9,3X74R arrived on the scene about the same time. So the Gustav Kersten >>Mouse Trap<< and the Cartridge were pretty much running parallel in time coupled together by the talented designer Gustav Kersten. And all the press wasn't push button and >>in your face<< like it is today and it took time to get the word out thru publications and adverts.


Hochachtungsvoll,
Raimey
rse

You may recall, I also had this unique Dreyse "Mouse Trap" double rifle. Regretably, I sent it to the Pouilin Auction last month where it was listed with only 3 pictures. It sold for a loss. I wish I would have kept that one to go with these two brothers.

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/dreyse11mm-000.jpg

What a loss & >>Cardinal Sin<< to not be the Custodian of the Trio, to compare & contrast each component, function & process/performance(ammo & effort @ the target).

Hochachtungsvoll,
Raimey
rse

But info like tube length, chamber dims, twist, etc are all critical knowledge components for the archives and future custodians, which like the Original End Users, have to be swayed to >>buy in<< to our craze of Sporting Weapons Platforms from the >>Golden Age of Gunning<< while competing with all the current Black Gun Craze, which has all this data. This provides a snapshot in time.

Like in the Cattle Industry today, we scan(Ultrasound) our calves @ yearling weight & this scan data will tell how big the Pork Chops will be, and its offspring, plus make a stab @ whether the meat will be graded as Choice, Prime or Select. Couple the scan data with actual kill data & the projection is even more accurate.

Hochachtungsvoll,
Raimey
rse

I had to choose which one to keep ... the Dreyse, or the Martini, I did keep the rare martini - I should have kept both ... oh well .. thats why the Vierordt & Cie. is so welcome.