doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Bullet diameter for a 450/400 Lancaster

I would like to get your opinion as to the diameter of a bullet that I need for my Lancaster 450/400 double rifle.  The rifle has a typical Lancaster oval bore with the minimum bore diameter = 0.405" and the maximum = 0.418".  

 I believe the appropriate cartridge combination is a soft lead 270 gr PP bullet, sized to .405" and 110 gr BP.

I shot the rifle a long tome ago with PP bullets (bullets = 0.395") with 2F and wasn't satisfied with the results.  Also  I don't like paper patching and want to try a cast bullets.  

I know that a 20-1 cast bullet will not upset like a pure lead PP bullet.   My concern with a 0.405" cast bullet is that it would not grip the "rifling" (spiral oval) and that there would be gas blow by. 
 
I can make a 0.418" bullet by swaging 44 mag bullets down.  I don't know whether a 0.418" bullet would be that accurate; it seems like a lot to squish down.

What are your thoughts?

I would start with a .410" pp or grease groove bullet myself.

Yes, unless they were going to reinvent the wheel, most 450-400 ammo would probably have a .408 jacketed bullet so a .410 lead should be perfect.

You can use .41 mag pistol bullets in a pinch.

If I was to get this rifle to shoot, I would build up correct factory shells for it:

.400 Diameter unpatched bullet 230 or 255 grains 1 in 12 lead/tin alloy NO antimony
Patch to .410 use either 11 or 16 lb paper (either seems to work)
110 grains OE 1 1/2 F if 3 1/4" case, 82 for 2 3/4"
Standard primer
3/16" lube cookie under bullet

This should be very close, if not right on the money.

That’s interesting. Old doubles have a lot of small details. These details show how they were designed. You don’t notice them at first.. When you handle a few you see the differences in balance, fit and how they work. You seem to be doing a job looking into it. Thanks for sharing. Conversations, like this help everyone learn and compare what they’ve experienced.

Mike,

Thank you. I have not shot this rifle in a while but what I remember is that it didn't shoot as well as another Lancaster (450 3 1/4").

I checked my notes and see that I used a swaged (Montana) 0.403" bullet weighing 245 gr and patched (2 layers). The patched bullet was then lubed with a light coat of rooster. I didn't mike the patched bullets but know they were around 0.409" because my brass throat ID is 0.410" and believe the bullets were somewhat a tight fit.

My notes don't say what I sed for wads but know that I use a felt wad over BP and 1/4" lube wad under the bullet. I made compression dies to compress BP loads (usually 1/4"). I don't weigh BP but use volume measure to throw BP. I believe the load for the 450/400 is 4 drams.

All that said, I need to try again with different powders. I also have some 0.395" bullets weighing 330 gr that I can patch and try.

However, I would like to try greased bullets. I think the recommendation is to get the largest diameter greased bullet that will fit in the brass. I just don't know if they will upset sufficintly as the large "groove" diameter is 0.418" but that is to be tested.

I would weigh the powder to make sure you have enough in there for the rifle to regulate.
I don't use a felt wad (it's a waste of space), the lube cookie is on top of the powder. The lube is sealed from the powder using a wafer wad of beeswax foundation wax. 3/16" lube should be plenty.
Two .030" hard card wads are under the bullet as scrapers - you'll need them about .425" diameter for the .400
Roscoe told me he only uses lube, and can't tell the difference from having wads as well ( and I hate to admit it, but he shoots nearly as well as me!)
Kynoch factory greasers are .410, and will obturate just fine to 418. My 450 No. 1 single using 1 in 15 bumps up .014" and shoots 3" groups at 100 yards. Make sure the alloy is lead/tin only.
I think the 330's will be too heavy for your double to regulate.

Remember, these rifles are hunting rifles. A rifle that shot 3-4" composite group at 100 yards in the 1880's was considered regulated. A .500 was called good at 6", probably because the regulator had had enough of the damn thing!

Use a standing rest if you can, I think using a modern bench rest can upset the apple cart with these things.