doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 More Repros falling apart

Was at a gun show last weekend, talking to some fellows that were looking for some double guns,
when Parker Repros came up. They said they were aware of two 2 repros in their area where the barrels fell
the frame (broken lugs). They also said that some of the guys at their sporting clays shoots are scared to shoot
their repros now, and are trying to sell them before they fall apart.

Dirty Harry

Did you ask for photos, serial numbers, or details of how these guns allegedly "fell apart"? That sort of proof shouldn't be hard to find, especially when a large majority of adults has immediate access to their cell phone camera.

We still have actual photographic evidence and the serial number of exactly one Parker repro that had the barrel lug braze joint fail. I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong, but I'm not going to jump to any conclusions based upon nothing but hearsay.

Filthy rumors - nothing more. The Parker Reproductions are as dependable as any other well-made gun in their price range.

I say Operator Error... (if these claims ever actually happened).

Filthy shame:



It happens. I’ve seen three examples that look exactly like this, took a picture of one. I doubt it is an epidemic, and, I really don’t care as I’m not and will never be an owner.

Best,
Ted

Why could this not be rebrazed?

Some talented gunsmith will make a business of taking care of this problem, if there is a problem.

Sure. The world is crawling with talented gunsmiths. I can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a couple of ‘em.

Best,
Ted

How can Operator Error explain the photo Ted just posted?

I especially like the dead cat part.

Talented Gunsmiths Like ''Arts'' will fix them at around $1000.00 per gun. That's why there are a load of them for sale
by a load of dealers and most if not all are on consignment !


Dirty Harry

P.S, That 2 more comes to, lets see, 22 Repro's with barrels falling off. (That we know of) That comes to $22,000 for some ''Talented'' gunsmith.
One thing I am almost sure of, there aren't any talented gunsmiths on the Parker gun site that can handle this Repro Problem. So I would think
the Parker Boys will be coming on the ''Double Gun site'' for Guidance.

When hell freezes over. Hold your breath and wait for that.

very sad...

otherwise, they are wonderful gons...

like alotta other parkers, repros are over priced, but are still wonderful hunting guns...

Hell Stan, your a Parker Union Member and your on the Double Gun site looking for ''Guidance'' every day !
On this site you have freedom of speech, just say one ''Pro Trump'' thing on the Parker Site, and you will get the Badge of Honor
If you don't know what that means, Mr. Good will explain it to you.

Dirty Harry

I'm on the DGJ site often, but looking for "guidance"?
Not very often.

At least I'm not stirring up **** with every post, like you.

It's not my fault that Repro's are breaking down, I am just reporting
the bad news on them when I hear of another one breaking down, that the Parker boys are trying to keep quiet.
Hell if I owned a few repro's, I wouldn't want that bad news getting out either. By the way, do you own any of them ?

Dirty Harry

What I own, or don't own, is none of your concern.

I agree with you !

Dirty Harry

I'll tell you something. The place I worked at had our own weld shop. The guys in there could weld, braze, solder or any or that type of work. I could probably name a dozen guys, retired, I worked with who could braze those. I know the guy who welded up a piece for my lawn mower was good enough to braze or solder those type of barrels. They had to learn to do all types of work like that to repair our machinery.

Did they replace those retired guys, jimmy? Are there still a dozen of them working there, fixing machinery? Funny, in my trade, and the trades associated with mine, nobody can find replacements. We’ve been advertising for two years for a qualified Journeyman where I work.

They don’t exist anymore.

How would those guys have handled the ribs getting loose after the concentrated heat from brazing that lug loosened them from the tubes? Could they silver solder ribs back on, or, braze them back on, if that is how they were built? Could they clean up the braze from the engraving or lettering on the tubes, after they knocked out reattaching the lug and the ribs? How were their polishing skills? Were they aware that different grades of guns got different degrees of polish, and that, ultimately, a craftsman’s goal is a finished repair that can’t be told from original? How were their engraving touch up skills? How well could they rust and/or hot blue?

How much engraving and bluing did those guys do on your lawnmower repair? Do tell.

Maybe you could get Steve, who posts here as SKB, to explain to you why he already made it clear that he wouldn’t touch that job.

Best,
Ted

too bad ole Ed aint wid us no mo...

he could fire up his torch...

apply ah bunch o c clamps...

an din put dat gon back to getter...

licky de split...

And put frogeye pseudo-case colors on it at the same time.Yuchhh!

That is an interesting problem! I gave it some thought and the best way in my opinion would be to heat them up in a controlled atmosphere oven. with a very thin ribbon of braze metal and flux in the joint. Held by a clamp of some sort. Yes, you would have to relay the ribs. When Parker(and others) did it, the barrels were in an unfinished state, so scale was not an issue. Try to do it with a torch would probably net you a crappy job. I might be willing to try a repair for myself if I could buy one of these guns cheap enough. Always wanted a steel shot special!

That was how barrels were brazed at Verney Carron when I was there. The barrels were assembled in a jig, everything was held in place with wire that was tightly wound around the bits, and the barrels run into the oven on a steel link conveyor. I saw the process, but, never saw the machine run. I got the impression they assembled barrels in fixtures Monday through Thursday, turned on the gas and lit the oven on Friday, and brazed barrels before the weekend.

Best,
Ted

I posted my reply well before Ted posted the pic. That's NOT operator error... but I have never heard of Repros doing that before this thread.

And I've only owned 5 or 6 Repros...

stan, my post here was in jest...

yours however, is not...

the man is dead...

give it a rest...

and keep in mind, of the many gun frames that old ed recolored at my request...

which I later sold, never had a single complaint...

on the contrary...

received many compliments from happy customers...

so stan an udders, wid no class nor respect for the dead...

give hit ah rest...

Bought a Repo new in 1987. In a year the stock split at the wrist. Had it repaired well. Short time later, the single trigger malfunctioned. Had it converted to DT. That bcured everything. Sold it...No Mas! Two other folks locally had Repros that also split at the wrist.

The world is full of surprises.

I have maintained across about three different threads on this topic that I do not believe this is an epidemic. I believe that the material that Winchester model 21s are built of, which, is 4140 Chromoly, is difficult to wet in a soldering operation, and, as a result, they pop ribs and for-end loops regularly. Perhaps there is an issue with the steel the Repops are made of that causes something similar, but, brazing a lump back in place is going to be far more traumatic than silver soldering ribs or a loop in place. There exist many Parker repros that have been at work for years and have no issues. I will say that the single trigger delivered in the Repro needs to be worked on most of the time, from what I have seen. That might be more of an opinion, but, the single trigger is usually a bit crunchy. But, that is a relatively easy fix.

I have seen three Parker Repro guns with this issue. It gets your attention the same way seeing a bad wreak happen does, and leaves a pit in your stomach for the guy who owns it and a big question on how much a repair will cost, or, if it is even feasible.

Best
Ted

I call 'em like I see 'em, Ed. Dead or alive. I take every opportunity to brag on good work just like I will point out bad work, and THAT was bad work.

If you don't want me to comment don't bring up "Master Gunsmith Ed Lander", your gun return policy, or your grouse killing owl. Bring 'em up if you want, but you're asking for opinions on here when you do.

There are more than a few stock makers who have come to be very well healed due to Repro's stocks cracking. It's a fairly common problem.
I didn't mention it because I taught all you guys new about it, and the ''Bad'' single triggers, a couple gunsmiths have gotten rich
changing single triggers to double triggers.

Dirty Harry

Rich gunsmiths....as plentiful as rocking horse dung.

gee Stan, with regard to old Ed, you are quite literally beating a dead horse...you claim here to be a Christian man...sometimes you don't sound very Christian nor manly...

as for my gun return policy, it is quite flexible and adaptable, depending on how the other person represents himself...as for you personally, I try very hard to avoid doing bidness wid weirdos...

which owl are you referring too? Henry or watts his name?

An den ders myh pet weasel Stan...

an as for repairin dim packers or any udder double gon havin a loose or disconnected breech block...

1. pack the barrels with Brownells heat sink paste, to protect whatever is holding the barrels together...

2. tin the barrels and breech block with lead/tin solder...

3. clamp it...

4. heat with propane torch? and solder it awl back together...

5. if this works, re blue barrels to make it look good...

6. if this don't work, try the opposite...

space age epoxy, that only works when frozen...

I have several people on ignore and no longer read their posts. So I can't always read what a lot of people on here say anymore. But, I talked to my buddy last night about the Repos lugs coming loose from the barrels that people thought were impossible to repair. He said, "What do you think I did for 30 years?" He said he knew exactly what I was talking about. He reminded me that there are eight of our businesses around the US and Canada and every one would have guys who could do that kind of work. He teaches at a technical school now. He said in June he will have about eight kids graduating who should be able to do that kind of work- having the proper equipment. I already named three companies who do the job after people on here said there were none. Sounds to me like people just like to make a job sound more difficult just so they can charge more money or maybe don't want to spend the time. Whatever.

There are quite a few original Parker guns that are pinned or doweled through the stock cheeks, or have been restocked due to splitting. The wedge shape of the tang, along with recoil contributes to this. It happened to my VH grade Parker.

So when you make a near exact reproduction of a gun with a design that is prone to a certain problem, why would it be surprising to see the same problem occasionally in the repro?

Some L.C. Smith stocks are known to often crack behind the sidelock plates. Some Lefever stocks are prone to cracks or breaks above or below the sideplates just behind the frame. Some Ithaca Flues stocks have a piece split out on either side of the top tang. Not always... but often enough to be noticeable and keep stock repair guys busy.

Design deficiencies or errors are a common thing that sometimes gets corrected, but often doesn't show up until many years after an item was sold. Most of our vintage doubles are pre-WWII and older, and are still going strong. There are very few consumer products that old that are more trouble free than our old guns. Our vehicles fail and get scrapped en masse all the time. Our guns get scrapped en masse only in countries where anti-gun politicians get elected.

Jimmy, tell us what their going rate is for repairing a ''Broken'' Repro ?
Art's told Me around $1000 + or - !

Dirty Harry

Hell of a deal! I wouldn't think of touching that job for twice the price.

Do you still think their ''Filthy Rumors'', barrels falling off, stocks cracking, triggers malfunctions and so on !

Dirty Harry

They don't do it for a living. The guys I knew were welders who worked at the same place I worked. But they had to do the same type of repairs on the same type of steel- brazing, welding and soldering. I spent 6 years on a job soldering large equipment, too, but not brazing. But I wouldn't fool with it. There were three gunsmiths on the other thread you started that did the job, though.

DimmyW, let me guess...you spent 6 years breathing lots of lead solder fumes with no ventilation...

That would explain some things.

Hey Harry,

You really need to get away from your computer for awhile. Have you been to the Southern lately, there will be plenty to see!!

Stay well and hope to see you at Hausmans.

Stan Hoover

It might have something to do with the fact that the Parker Repros were made by Winchester in their Kodensha plant where some of the other Winchester models were made... same plant, same materials, same processes...??

That may actually be the most useless post I have ever read. "If this don't work".

Did you get that from Master Gunsmith Ed Lander?

We discussed this on another thread I think, but the repos were not made by Winchester. Winchester had nothing to do with the manufacturing of the gun. The guns were made by Kodensha. The only way Winchester was involved was because they used Winchester's importing/exporting license to get them exported in the beginning. So, they put Winchester's name on the guns.

I strongly disagree with you Jimmy W.
It was in the Winchester factory in Kodensha Japan where the Repros were manufactured and the Parker Reproduction project had to be shut down so that Winchester could put more focus on other Winchester models they needed the space for.

like, who cares?

DAM16SXS and Jimmy, you have it all wrong, = All the guns manufactured in the Kodensha plant were stopped. The Reason, the plant was ''SOLD'',
TORN DOWN and a Golf Driving Range was built there. So their you have it, it was ''Golfer's that killed the manufacture of Parker Repro's.

Dirty Harry

This is true.
JR

GOOGLE: shootingsportman.com/parkerrepro/

"The Parker Reproduction Story"-------The article was written by Dave Travillion. Go down where it says--"Winchester Repeating Arms Division never was involved with Parker Reproduction shotguns." It says, they only used Winchester's importing license. That is why they put the name WINCHESTER on the gun.

That wasn't until AFTER 12,225 guns were produced. Read the article.

Here's yet another Post I made a couple days ago that didn't get Posted. I don't know if it was censored or if it was lost in cyberspace. I suppose the server could have crashed when I sent it because it was overwhelmed with all of DimmyW's recent Posts. It sure didn't crash due to a bunch of Parker Repros with failed barrel lumps being uploaded.

But anyhow Stan, I don't think Ed's recommendation of repairing this Parker Repro is the most useless Post. Soldering a barrel lump back on with tin/lead solder would not be my choice for this repair. But 67/33 eutectic tin/lead solder has a tensile strength of around 8000 lbs./sq. in. So it might actually hold for a little while even though that isn't near as strong as a good braze joint. Someone here used to maintain that a shotgun breech could be held closed by hand during firing without any bolting. Not sure I'd want to test that either. I don't know of any space age epoxy that only works when frozen, but I recall a Thread from Ghostrider where he suggested repairing badly pitted barrels by lining them with epoxy. I think that was far worse an idea than Ed's.

But when it comes to "Most Useless Post Ever", I'd bet both ClapperZapper and Princess Stevie are saying, "Hold my Beer!"

Just look at their recent Posts in Woodreaux's "Breech Face Question" Thread. Princess Stevie looked at it and said this:


Can you believe that someone who claims to be a real gunsmith actually saw those holes as an older method of deactivating a gun?

And ClapperZapper looked at the same gun that obviously did not ever have any external hammers or any sign of filling in grooves or channels for a Pinfire pin, and he said this:

^^^I don't know who posted this post above me^^^ because I have them on ignore, but I just wanted to say that I would think that Dave Travillion's article would be accurate. And this is the way I heard the story of the Parker Repros 20 years or more when they went out of business. I knew several people who purchased them and liked them. Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Here is one way to catch a LIAR and a FOOL on the DoubleGunShop Forum

DimmyW claims he is IGNORING my Posts, which would mean that he does not wish to read them. Ever!

As a little test anyone can try, I went to DimmyW's profile and put him on IGNORE USER. Then I went back to this Thread, and any Post made by DimmyW simply was not there. His Posts were absolutely invisible to me, and simply did not show up for me in this, or any other Thread.

Then I went back to his profile and toggled UNIGNORE USER, and just like that, DimmyW's Posts reappeared to me.

That means if DimmyW was telling the truth, he wouldn't have even known that there was a Post made by me or someone that he was actually IGNORING. He would have seen nothing to respond to.

He never would have said "^^^I don't know who posted this post above me^^^". This is far worse than a pissed-off woman who is pretending to IGNORE her husband. This is a form of mental illness on full display.

DimmyW does this dumb shit quite often, so that also means DimmyW must toggle the IGNORE USER function, and actually reads the Posts of the people he claims to IGNORE. Then he goes back to IGNORING them until the next time he decides to peek and see what he is missing. And so it goes with most of the sensitive little sissies who claim to IGNORE others.

Ted's simple response of a Squirrel with a Nut in its mouth is appropriate, but doesn't go far enough to explain the behavior of DimmyW. A Squirrel would never be so stupid.... or a nut either.

I am as Pro-2nd Amendment as anyone, but guys who act like this probably should not own guns, or even any objects more dangerous than a dull crayon.

It would be easy for me to just IGNORE guys like DimmyW permanently, but I don't IGNORE anyone here because a big part of the entertainment I get from this forum is watching guys like him make absolute fools of themselves, and pointing out that much of what they say or do cannot be trusted. I don't know why, but it always seems to be the same low I.Q. guys who are dumb enough to support Anti-gun Democrats.

Have you ever re-activated a gun Princess? We all know the answer, of course you haven't.

I have. This Gibbs .461 was de-activated, old school style with a hand drill run into the chamber and a steel plug pounded into place. Good to go now, the hole was tig welded up, the chamber bored and a sleeve was installed, then re-chambered, finally the finish was blended out without a polish of the metal. I'm sure that you have done plenty of jobs such as this Karen, or not

I just learned that a guy who has me on ignore can send me PMs. Why he would do that, I don’t know.

You can delete PMs without reading them, as well. Good to know.

Best,
Ted

In reference to what I actually stated back in December of 2020.

I think the idea has some merit. I spent my career in the aerospace service industry and was tasked with finding safe and economical repairs due to design issues, corrosion, failures, etc.
I wouldn�t dismiss the possibility of using some of the latest super epoxies or other products that have come out in just the past few years.
I have also thought of repair ideas that might be used to repair barrel corrosion and pitting.
We repaired some high dollar landing gear struts that had internal corrosion by machining the internal barrel of the strut and have the barrel chromed. Could this be done on a shotgun barrel? I�m not sure.

Could a thin metal sleeve be hydroformed inside the barrel after back boring? Not sure.
Could a barrel be back bored and then heat the barrel in an oven, super cool the sleeve using methanol and dry ice then press the sleeve in for a interference fit? No bonding agent needed possibly eliminating the issues Teague experienced.
Wouldn�t resolve the issue of making a dent non repairable but if you had a unserviceable barrel to begin with you got more time out of the barrel then you would have in the pitted state you are ahead of the game.

Anything can be fixed. But, that doesn’t mean anything should be fixed. What is the budget for repairing old double gun barrels?

Not as much as most of us might think.

Best,
Ted

[quote=keith-
a big part of the entertainment I get from this forum is watching guys like him make absolute fools of themselves, and pointing out that much of what they say or do cannot be trusted.[/quote]

That might be more impressive if you were not wrong so often Karen. I will bet that is a result of your lack of experience in most of the subjects that you pontificate upon.

All my best Princess.

By the way, your mailbox is full

So, Ghostrider, do you think any of this super glue that they use to glue ribs on guns would hold the lugs on barrels and be strong enough to stay together for good? Or do you think that there is any glue strong enough to do that? I am not familiar with that type of glue- I have only vaguely heard about it on websites like this one. Thanks.

I was commenting on the sheer fallacy of relining pits in gun barrels with epoxy... That's a far cry from machining out pits in landing gear and then chrome plating.

I commented on the 2020 fantasy of repairing a pitted shotgun bore when that idea was posted. Essentially, I said it was a totally impractical fantasy, and that no epoxy we have would withstand the combination of pressure and the intense heat of powder burning, along with the simultaneous friction of the payload being propelled down the bore. I felt it was likely the epoxy repair would fail very quickly, and if it delaminated, it could create a bore obstruction..

Ghostwriter said at the time he was going to try it anyway. We're still waiting on the results.

Like Ted says, not everything can or should be fixed. It was a silly idea. But not nearly as silly as Princess Stevie's idea that those "holes" in the breech face just above the water table was an old method of deactivating a gun.

I am also highly skeptical about Princess Stevie's role in reactivation of the supposedly deactivated Gibbs single shot he/she posted about. Among other work, he/she claimed to have TIG welded a hole in the chamber.

But a few years back Princess Stevie told us in the Custom Rifle forum that she sent out a Mauser action to have someone who actually knew how to TIG weld build up the receiver to convert it into a square bridge Mauser.

I do my own TIG welding. And I wasn't dumb enough to just jump to some asinine conclusion in that other Thread. I realized we needed additional information or pictures to determine the purpose of the holes in that shotgun breech face. Someone who claims to be a gunsmith should have followed my lead instead of sticking his/her neck out to act like just another internet know-it-all. Instead, she demonstrated profound ignorance far worse than Ed's idea of soldering a separated barrel lump. But when you farm out work to other real gunsmiths, I guess you can take credit for the things they did too, and attempt to run away from your previous stupidity..

Another case of having folks just think you're stupid, or choosing to post your thoughts and remove all doubt.

The "calculation" for whether something should be fixed is different for everyone.

A sentimental attachment to a particular gun will change the calculation considerably, as will an effectively unlimited budget.

While my budget in 2026 isn't unlimited, it certainly allows for far more discretionary spending than it did in 1980. There's no way I'd own many of the things I own today, including guns, boats, fishing equipment, etc.

I didn't see what Ted said earlier because I have him on ignore, or I would have commented earlier. But I can see what he said now on your post. And I agree with you, Geoff. Sometimes different amounts of money will be spent on the same gun depending on the circumstances. Sentimentality definitely plays a big part in how much you spend on a gun. And if you need something to fit into something you collect, better go for it.

DimmyW, Ted posted a day or two ago that you sent him a PM... which he deleted without opening or reading it.

If you really were IGNORING him, you wouldn't have sent him a PM message. Some of us are enjoying watching you make a fool of yourself. And some are dumb enough to actually believe you.

Life is hard. It's harder when you are stupid.

Karen,
Were you going to post any pictures of your work? I didn't think so.

You are just a bitter and inexperienced little Princess who has not worked up the nerve to post a single picture of her own work in 18 years.

I'll keep on posting pictures of my work. You will continue being the whiney little girl without real world experience that you have always been.

You could prove me wrong, but you won't, just like you wouldn't admit that you were wrong in the stock bending thread.

Life must be very hard for a person as stupid as yourself.

By the way, your mail box is full

All my best,
Steve

I also forgot to mention, I saw FOUR Repros on a guys table at the National Gun Day Gun Show last Saturday. I asked him about them falling apart and he said he has one he has been shooting since they first came out and he has had no problems with it. He has always collected them and never knew about any problems......... And speaking of guns failing, I also passed a table that had several Remington 1100s. I asked the dealer about the brass pin- he showed me one of his 1100s that had the pin in it and he confirmed what you gentlemen said on here about strengthening the forearm on my post on March 29. I believe it was Clapper Zapper and Kutter. So, thank you for that. You were absolutely correct. 👍

As of today, still deleting unopened messages from my secret admirer. What does he want?

Who cares?

Best,
Ted

Ted, I have a whole slew of unopened P.M. messages from Princess SKB, and also some from DimmyW, who claims to be IGNORING me. Princess SKB hasn't figured out that I won't engage via P.M.'s with deceptive fruitcakes, and is frustrated he/she can't send more after filling my P.M. box to maximum with vulgar Spam PM's.


Sometimes, I wonder if DimmyW might have fathered an equally dimwitted child who grew up to be a gender bending Colorado gunsmith that farms out the hard jobs to other real gunsmiths.

Accurate.

Going back to where this all started, I suspect a Parker Reproduction, that needed $1K worth of talented repair, might not be getting that repair. I further believe, in spite of at least one joker telling us that a repair like that is routine, it is not. One actual gunsmith has said he wouldn’t touch it.

If I was in that position, I might try to hunt down a second set of barrels before commissioning that drastic a repair. I can’t wrap my head around a far eastern copy of a long out of production American double being a sentimental thing, but, everybody is different. To me, the last collectible thing out of the far east was made during the Ming dynasty, and, I’m not interested in it, but, somebody is.

A far eastern copy/reproduction of an obsolete, American, production, consumer level boxlock, ain’t the Mona Lisa.

Best,
Ted