doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Kemen blow up

I don't have a photo site to share pics, but a friend sent me pics of a Kemen O/U with a blown up barrels. It looks like the top of the top barrel blew out, wood behind action came off and I think forearm broke also. It's hard to imagine you could overload a reload enough to cause this kind of damage.

You can forward any & all images to me & I will kindly post them for you.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I had a Kemen. It means "Strong" in Basque.

Let me guess, a trap shooter, and hand loads.

MX 2000 bought 2nd hand. The seller shared that the barrels had been 'tuned', but not that the MWT at the burst was .012"



If it looks like this, with a ring bulge, it was an obstruction



The original Armas Kemen ceased operations about 2017, but returned about 2023.

I don't think these two events have any relationship to each other.

Nope.

Yikes.

Where, on the barrel, did the blow out occur . . . . chamber, mid barrel, further down bore?

It matters much when diagnosing.

Bore obstructions can & will happen.

We had a close call shooting sporting clays yesterday. My shooting buddy had one his 28ga reloads have a case separation on the shot. Luckily, he extracts his shells rather than ejects them & on this one only got the brass with about a 1/4" of the plastic case back when he extracted the spent round. The reminder of the hull was about two inches down the bore & had heat fused itself to the bore. It took us close to a half hour with two different cleaning rods to finally dislodge the case from the bore.

I'm just glad that my friend was shooting an O/U rather than a semi-auto. This was on his first shot at a true pair and if this was a semi-auto he probably wouldn't have seen the partial case get ejected & we probably would have had a barrel burst or worse.

I suspect that something along these lines is probably what happened with the burst barrel on the Kemen in this thread.

We just had a close one--be attentive & careful--your health & gun depends on it!

The pictured MX2000 in Drew Hause's posting is a Perazzi, if I surmise correctly?

The originally posted Spanish Kemen (by Nitrah) is one that we can only speculate about, without pictures. Yet I would tentatively agree with dogon that a mere overload is less likely as cause, than a bore obstruction.

Carcano

I have the situation dogon describes happen with 410 shells occasionally. I always check carefully to make sure all of the hull has cleared the barrel

Having ejectors does not necessarily mean that the separation wouldn't have been noticed. I trap the ejected hulls in my hand as they clear the chambers. I would have noticed immediately that one of them was separated.

I do this in order to either pocket the empties on a hunt, or throw them in the trash can on a course. I'm always surprised that more people don't do this. It's so easy to learn.

A bit of a delay as the fotos arrived in my Spam Folder.....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Definitely an overloaded shell. Seen it before with firsthand knowledge of the cause.

Short of substituting the wrong powder, a wad in the forcing cone (I do not see a ring bulge), or a manufacturing defect, it is very difficult to rupture the breech of a modern quality O/U; likely > 50,000 psi
The pressure separated the breech at the monobloc, and was enough to fragment the breech.
This MAY have been DDT
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/smokeless-powder-ddt.245629/

Smokeless shotgun powders CAN, under experimental conditions or with the use of a detonator, be made to detonate.
I have seen no article as yet documenting detonation using shotgun primers or in a shotshell.

Unfortunately a metallurgical failure study is likely to only show rapid deformation (not fatigue) with terminal cleavage, not the cause.
I would strongly urge the shooter to confirm the powder used, and send his reloads for pressure testing.
Did the hulls he was using have a separate base wad??

Drew, the most common cause of detonation that I have documented is old cartridges that have had a lot of vibration during their life. Rifle cartridges that ride on the dash of a truck or in the glove box for many years, or shotgun shells that were in a case in a dog trailer for many years, the powder grinds itself down into a state that when you touch it off it detonates instead of burns.

Other than that, it’s usually reloader error. I don’t really feel like tearing into anybody today so I’ll just let it go with that.

I have only seen one steel load factory fresh that ever damaged a barrel. That was on a Bonelli nova when they first came out. The cartridge stripped a chunk out of the barrel, but the barrel did not split.

That was a manufacturing defect in the barrel forging.

Old men blowing up their shotguns at the trap line is such a comedy event. It’s really hardly worth commenting on.

Not too hard to avoid an obstruction when shooting- when I load my guns I always look down the barrels to make sure they are clear every time. If I have to, I blow out the smoke to see through the barrel. A lot of people don't.

Jimmy, that cartridge blew up the strongest piece of the entire shotgun. In Spectacular fashion.

It’s going to turn out to be a reload where somebody put rifle powder into the cartridge. By accident.

I’m glad no one was hurt, and it’s unfortunate that a reasonably expensive shotgun was destroyed in the event.

Sounds like that one "Howdah'ed" old Holland & Holland double rifle, with which Buckstix recently regaled us. Also otherwise well documented for those times of yore, when "fluid steel" was still sort of a novelty.

Carcano

Is this the old or new Kemen? There should be a date code on the barrel flat. And a full size close up of the blown breech would be nice.

In the case of the Benelli nova, I was guiding a young guy goose hunting, and it was his first shotgun that he bought.

He put in brand new Winchester 3 1/2 inch BBB’s, and the first shot out of his new gun sounded weird and I thought I saw something fly.

I stopped everything, went over to his layout and looked at his shotgun, and you could see a patch inside the barrel that was missing.

Benelli would do nothing. They said it was the ammunition.

Winchester overnighted a brand new nova barrel to us and we put it into his shotgun. And it worked fine.

Winchester was all about getting those cartridges back.
And no cost to the kid.

But when you are blowing up the strongest part of a mono block shotgun, in 2026, well…

Funny thing is, reloading a 12 gauge these days is a fool‘s errand.

When these guys are making up shotgun shells from World War II reclaimed powders that were designed for rifles, and they think they’re onto something, all I can say is good luck to you.

I’m not saying that in this case it is anything as extreme as that.

Again it’s a pretty expensive lesson and I’m sorry that it happened.

It’s not like Lord Walsingham shooting off his barrels during a hot flurry and a quick exchange.

I'm just saying- that I always check my barrels when I load my gun to make sure there is no obstruction. Some people don't. That's all I'm saying.

Given the number of reported defective factory cartridges in the past few years that would be a likely recommended process. And catching the carts along with blowing the smoke out of the barrels has a definite cool factor.

Last year at the local club we had a member who had 4 bloopers out of a new box of Winchester AA 12 gauge skeet loads (9 shot). Contacted Winchester and they asked for the lot number and sent him a brand new flat. It happens for sure.

Several years ago I was shooting on a squad and one guy had a blooper. I waited for him to stop and clear the barrel and he never did. When he was putting another round in his gun I started hollering for him to stop. There was a wad in the barrel all right that he didn't notice and he had forgotten to listen for one. I was the one who had taught him to shoot and he was shooting with the 686 Silver Pigeon trap gun I had sold him. So, I was always kinda keeping an eye on him.

Engineering something to be foolproof will universally lead to discovery of the ingenuity of fools.

Best,
Ted

_____________________________________________________________________________

Tu ne reconnaîtrais pas un faciste même s'il t'était planté dans le cul.

Just to be clear, you're saying that substituting 18 grains of 4895 for 18 grains of 700x is going to blow up a shotgun?

Tim

No
I am saying that home brew reloaders, assume all risks of their stupidity.
the trap shooting world is rife with them, of course the trap shooting world is also littered with blown up Shotguns.

You be the judge.


To cycle back to the original post of this thread, the PSI required to blow up a mono block that is cut from a steel billet that is tested multiple times before it gets near any of the precision work has to have extraordinarily high pressures.
Only so many ways to get there.

Only so many ways to get detonation in a shotgun hull.

The OP hasn’t offered any additional information since the beginning.

Read into that what you want

What's foolish about reloading specialty 12 gauge shells that cannot be bought, or cannot be bought except at prohibitively high prices?

I’m not a reloader, but, if you are into that 2 1/2” or 2” 12 gauge thing, that might be the only reasonable way to have ammunition.

Out in my shop is a brand, spanking, new 1981 vintage Mec 600 Junior, for 12 gauge. Same old story, the old man died and his heirs put it out by the curb with a bunch of stuff next to a piece of plywood that had “Free” painted on it.

I was walking the dog, and carried the box home on my head. When I walked back, everything, the old tires, the toolboxes, the minnow buckets, everything, was gone.

Even the plywood that said “free” on it.

I never set it up, either. Same thing might happen, here.

Best,

Ted

I only reload 2" shells on a Mec Jr. Long gone are the days as a trapshooter that I loaded 100's upon 100's of 12 ga. trap loads on a Mec hydraulic press. With the price of lead today it just doesn't pay even for a prolific trapshooter.

Relax, I wasn't reading anything into it. It appears you know a lot more about Trap Shooters blowing up their guns than I do. And I have nothing to argue one way or the other about this gun blowing up.

I was just curious about a statement you made, because of all the dumb things I've read about, loading shotshells with surplus rifle powder didn't make the list. Other than lodging something in the bore, I don't even see it being dangerous, although it is a ridiculously stupid thing to do. But people have done dumber things. I was just hoping to learn a little more.

Tim

OK, I’ll bite.

First, Stan, I was just referring to standard 7/8 to 1 ounce competition loads that people that shoot a lot run through by the thousands.
It’s not worth it to me, to acquire all the components to produce specialty 12 gauge rounds in the 2 3/4 length. My time is more valuable than the financial difference.

One $30 box of specialty 12 gauge loads more than covers my pheasant season. And I have all of the 3 inch 20 gauge cartridges that a person could ever want, so I’m not going to bother to set up to make those.

But there are lots of people that run through 1000 or more rounds a week. Especially retirees down at the ranges in Florida.
With the cost of components, it just isn’t worth the time to sit down and try to crank out that kind of shell volume. You’re doing it for $.50 a box. That’s a fools errand.
Last time I priced out 12 gauge rounds, it was 727 a box, I could buy them for 734 at Walmart.

If a person reads online in the trap, shooting world, they will read every abomination involving a shotgun and cartridge that can possibly be found.

If a person reads in the precision rifle world, there are plenty of people privately experimenting with surplus reclaimed powders

To bring it all into a circle, there are people that reload pistol cartridges with just a pinch of various rifle powders.

I cannot trade my safety or the condition of my equipment for microscopic financial improvements.

But people do it every day.

Actually, CZ, I wasn't baiting you. I really wanted to understand why you said "Funny thing is, reloading a 12 gauge these days is a fool‘s errand." You explained yourself.

But, wouldn't it have been better to have made it clear the first time instead of making a general, sweeping and inaccurate statement like you did? Don't assume that the rest of us can get inside The Grey Man's head.

Look Stan,
The thread is about a blown up comp gun.
It used to shoot SAAMI spec loads

For a guy that doesn’t even shoot, I admire the gaul you show sticking your non competition shooting nose belligerently into every thread I post on.

A guy that doesn't even shoot? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

And, it's gall, not gaul.

Give him a brake. He probably went to skewl at a learing center.


____________________________
Always up for a trip to Gall.

For years, Stan has told us about his competition shooting. He has told us about the various competition guns he has used... even to the point of shooting at least one enough to go off the face. He has told us about the loads he used and about all of the time he has spent patterning and checking guns for fit and regulation. That's on top of a lifetime of serious hunting and high volume dove shooting.

So how could the Gray Man possibly call Stan a "guy who doesn't even shoot"... or a guy with a "non-competition shooting nose"??? That sounds like one of those nasty ad hominem personal attacks that people use to drive folks away from this forum.

I would also like to hear some details from the Gray Man about all of these shotguns being detonated by reloads of military surplus rifle powder. After a lifetime of reloading, that's one I've never heard of. I'd bet it's even less common than small bore Ithaca Flues frames cracking under normal use.

I suppose being that blind and dumb might explain how he could possibly think his anti-gun Democrats are remotely worthy of the support of any sane, rational gun owner.

I learned something. Apparently someone has tried substituting military rifle powder in shotgun shells.
Google "shotgun shell detonation using military surplus rifle powder"
I couldn't however find a published report thereof, but found this
https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18397

I can't imagine that is a surprise.

I'm waiting for the definitive article on using motor oil for cooking.

Yep

Hatcher's Notebook, 1966
https://books.google.com/books?id=yESNUKSg5aMC&pg=PA184&lpg
“E.C.” blank powder burns with extreme speed…to give a sharp report when it is not heavily confined. An enthusiast once got hold of some of this powder, being familiar with “E.C.” shotgun powder…and loaded a bunch of shells. To try out his new load he got out his fine Lefever gun, and put up a target in the shooting gallery to get the pattern. There was a terrific detonation, and a big piece was blown out the side of the barrel near the breech, flew across the room and buried itself in a wood bench.

I'm not at all surprised that the Preacher was busily searching for examples of those numerous fools that Clapper Zapper claimed are blowing up a bunch of shotguns by loading them with Military Surplus Rifle Powder.

I myself wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone actually tried it. Clapper Zapper is probably busy compiling a big list of examples. People try all kinds of crazy things in reloading, and many other pursuits. A high school buddy blew up his brothers shotgun by experimenting with a duplex load of shotgun powder and FFFg Black powder. I once witnessed a co-worker using a 220 cu.ft. oxygen cylinder in place of compressed air when spraying lacquer. I told him he was f---ing nuts, and was going to end up burned like Michael Jackson. But I'll ruin the Preachers weekend by noting that he still hasn't produced a bunch of examples of reduced loads of Military Surplus Powder causing detonation of a bunch of shotguns. Or any for that matter. Maybe he should also try other search engines like DuckDuckGo, Bing, Ask.com, etc. Maybe search on Baidu to see if any Chinamen are doing it. Keep looking... keep clicking... until the computer mouse dystonia won't let you click any more!


"E.C." blank powder is not Military Surplus Rifle Powder. Not even close. 1966 was 60 years ago... a long time to go back searching for all of these shotguns that have been detonated by reduced loads of Military Surplus Rifle Powder. And desperation is never a good look!

William: Jesus died on the cross this day so we can be reconciled with God (2 Corinthians 17-21), and rose on Sunday proving that we can walk in freedom (John 8:36)...from the burden of sin, the pain that keeps us in bondage and the hate that destroys us. I don't know what happened to you, but I'm sorry, and really do hope that you can find healing.
Isaish 53:5
“But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.”