doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com want to buy a cheap merkel or similar

i want to buy an old and cheap s/s and came across simpsonltd. i see a lot of merkels/ayas and brnos for sale. what should i be wary of when looking for an old merkel. it will be used for rough shooting. ducks/geese/pheasant/grouse in wet/cold/snowy conditions. want english stock and 2 triggers.

will only shoot steel with light loads. can open chokes as needed.

no idea if doing anything to forcing cones should be considered.

any advice or options would be greatly appreciated. also other cheap shops like simpsonltd.

thanks.

There use to be another website that had tonnes of the Post WWII offerings. If indeed shooting steel, I would source one with good steel for the period and quite thick tubes which can be opened up..... After WWII, all the gunmakers were consolidated under the same umbrella to make War reparations for Russian elites & Hunters. So, for the most part, almost all are the same...

Although I have not used steel, but I have been pleased for 20+ years with tubes stamped near the lower rib >>Simson - Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl SP1<<, which @ one time used the 4 Ringe Olympic Style Stamp and at one time, we thought we knew the steel origin, but the origin seems to have been masked and maybe it was just advertising....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thank you very much Raimey. I used to have a nice 47 e but stupidly sold it in a slump and went to all 20g. Now want something like that back for fun, but limited in finances.

Ill keep looking for something.

Here's a recent thread & use >>DDR<< and/or >>GDR<< in your search engine:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=519154&page=all

I have performed a cursory search, but didn't find for what I was looking.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Keep checking Gunbroker. Lots of them show up. Simson, Sauer, Geco. Most of them made in Suhl.

Thanks again. i will keep looking. Your link helped me understand a little.

One of our Russian Contributors makes a good point & I have found this to be true, for the most part:

>>It wouldn't be quite correct to generalize, however, that all East German guns were inferior in quality. At one time, to avoid competition, the major brands collected under the Ernst Thellman umbrella (which was really first and foremost a way of keeping Suhl gunmaking as close to old traditions as was possible while maintaining a Socialist facade), were given different market niches. And Merkel, sadly, was lowest. To compensate, they were given the sport versions of the O/U, which got Olympic fame, but their sporting guns were the cheapest of all. Sauer was better, and Simson best, but the truly best-of-the-best in GDR was Buhag. They could make an A&D boxlock as nice as anyone.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295547&page=all

Still I am searching for that website that had tonnes of GDR guns..


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ah, hah..... Blackbern 575 Arms.....



https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=253367&page=all

Apparently they are defunct? But you might try his phone # or email contact......



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I hunted in West Germany a great deal from 1972 to 1982 and being a "gun nut" I paid attention to the guns my German friends were using. Except for a few guns that were successfully hidden from the authorities after the war, most of the guns they used were made after the war including those mentioned by Raimey above plus Fortuna, Sodia, Brno, and a couple other Austrian makers. Most of the WW2 veteran age hunters used 16-gauge 70mm chambered guns but one of my closest friends did use a 20-gauge 70mm and another used a 12-gauge 70mm chambered gun. Many of the sons of these hunters used 12-gauge 70mm chambered guns and I noticed as time went on, 12-gauge guns became more prevalent and 16-gauge less so. All of these were "kipplauf" guns and O/U became more prevalent with the younger hunters. During all that time I noticed only one hunter using a shot gun that was not a kipplauf, and it was a pump that had a custom stock made to be used by a severely damaged hand. All these postwar guns were perfectly useable and there was no noticeable difference in effectiveness between these and the few prewar guns, except they used modern 2 3/4" shells (2 1/2" shells were easily available for the pre-war guns). Most of the postwar guns were fairly plainly adorned at first, owing to the economic situation and demand for guns to hunt with. As time went on, more and more finely engraved guns started appearing as the economy improved. In my opinion, which may not be shared by others, anyone looking for a German gun to use (especially if changes to choke or other features are planned) should just "buy the gun" without prejudice toward postwar or Eastern Bloc guns. Given the difference in collector prices between older and newer or communist made guns, it is natural that owners of the more costly guns want to consider theirs "better", but at the same time will condemn any change as "ruining" the gun. If you can find a gun you like, for a price you can afford, and can have changes made to make it better meet your needs, there is no reason not to buy it. If you are looking, I suggest you look at Simpson Ltd.
Mike

thank you Mike. I'm looking at Simpson. Am ok getting something in rough shape and shipping it to get chokes bored out. No idea if doing forcing cones will do anything.

I hunt a little, but on average fire less than a box of shells all season.

its an itch i would like to scratch.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...hag-merkel-12ga-sxs.cfm?gun_id=102795596

Here's a BüHag Kerner-Anson platform from 1962 that more than likely would be stout. I have serious reservations that it passed thru Merkel hands. More than likely it was retailed by Kettner. Also, the name H. Kessel in Heidersbach near Suhl and all those numbers are numbers are probably for some export effort. I'll try to lift some fotos.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

If memory serves me correctly, I think this was the mark to be peddled thru Kettner....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Although not in the same vein, but a neat Historical Meffert someone is getting for a deal:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-underlever-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=103331373



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

You guys are good. I am impressed with how much you know and appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.

another option. AYA. Thoughts?

Yeah, but a quality AyA could be more expensive. You could chase a Belgian variant.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I purchase a number of guns from Simpson's. Read the descriptions look at the pictures and use the closeup feature on their site. If you find one you like give them a call and they will pull it out of inventory and go over it with you on the phone.

I did take a turn through IL and spent two days in the shop, they set me up with a space on the counter to set up my gear. I gave them a long list of rifles and shotguns I wanted to look at. As I finished looking at one they would bring me another. I bought five and they sent the barrels along with me and just shipped butts and actions to my FFL saving me a bunch on shipping.

I've been doing business with them a long time.

Last year I bought a really nice Simson O/U 12ga, the one on the merkel style frame. I always wanted a Merkel 200 with two triggers and ejectors. The Simson gave me everything with a little less engraving at less than half the price.

There are a lot of rough guns but you can find some real gems.

thank you. I will call them.

A couple that seem ok to me are.

first

second

third

cheaper

The last one is cheaper and maybe worked on.

any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
thanks

yet another question. You had mentioned sauer as better than Merkel? They have some, and they look very similar. Also is there a way to ask Simpson to send pics of the barrel flats and the proof marks? i am still looking and am afraid of making too much of a mistake. i just don't want something that blows up in my face. I will be careful about light loads, as I usually shoot 20 gauge guns.

I am sure they would send images or go over it w/ you on the phone. I would ask about the barrel steel type.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I’ve bought several guns from Simpsons. SxS, bolt actions and 22s. I’ve not been disappointed yet. I’m really a novice but I haven’t seen much difference between any of the post war GDR/DDR SXS. Whether Simson or Gbr Merkel. A 1982 Gbr. Merkel did have some stamped internal parts but it worked fine. I’ve kept a 1952 and 1958 Sauer 12ga. One has the “3 Rings” the other the “4 Rings” markings on the barrels. Maybe Krupp and a Russian indicator of the steel or the stamps were handy in a workers paradise? I’ve been happy with a couple of Husqvarna 310 (310AS and 310AN) and Brno ZP47 sidelocks. The Brno have more drop on the stock than I’m used to. The 310AN has a weld to fix a crack in the trigger guard where it screws into the gun that they didn’t notice and I didn’t notice till I took it apart but not a deal breaker. Call them and have the SKU and a salesman will go over the gun with you and answer any questions. They’ll break the gun down and tell you what the markings are on the flats. But they’re not what’s the word? Loonies?? Like all of us here. One time they told me it was a December 1970 gun (12/70). Nope! there was also an 867. And I’m still not sure I decipher a Belgian markings correctly. I’ve got a gunsmith friend who has cleaned the dried grease and opened the chokes for a $$. These guns are far better than a Stevens 311 and see what people want for them.

DBH1956, or anyone else,
what do the rings markings on the barrels mean.

I listed a few guns on an earlier post. Anyone have any idea about them? I think there are at least 2 I would ask about. Do you think if I asked the Salesman which one seemed better it would be a good idea? After all, they look at guns all day.

I hope the Krupp three rings markings on this 1950 dated Sauer 12ga. mean they are pre-war barrels. The four olympic style rings on a 1958 Sauer 12ga mean a soviet steel. At least that is what I have read here. But think about East Germany just 5 years after the war. What a mess it must have been. But it's a nice utilitarian gun. Straight English stock, a little over 28" barrels, both a few ounces under 7lbs, and both lock up tight. The 1950 has thick reddish varnish like I have seen on some Mosin Nagant rifles. I like them and find them very interesting. I always want more! Sorry for the large pictures it's been a while since I posted pictures.