doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Would you buy it?

Looking at a Model 21- 20 gauge at a gun store. it looks like it is in pretty nice shape. I started to buy it. Then I noticed on the tag, it was originally M/F. But the chokes have been opened to IC/IM. I went into shock mode and turned and walked away. I don't know who opened them. Or who owns the gun. It is probably on consignment. I'm just afraid to fool with it. I want it original. There's no way to try it out. It's either buy it and take a chance or forget it. It might be sold by now. Still thinking about it. Would you buy a gun if the chokes had been opened? What do you think?

If you wanted an all-original Model 21, it is not the gun for you. If you were buying the gun to use, what would you be using it for, and what chokes would you want it to have? Is it collector-priced or shooter-priced? Just spitballin' it for you.

If the chokes were good for intended purposes I would buy it. I have opened the chokes on several guns

I would prefer the more open chokes myself

Would you be afraid that it would shoot okay? I don't want it to shoot around a tree. I would want it for skeet, probably.

That's yet another a bizarre statement from DimmyW, who very recently advised Crying Bob to not pattern his new .410 shotgun because he wouldn't want that information messing with his head while shooting.

Who in their right mind would want to know if their shotgun was throwing erratic patterns with big holes and far from point of aim???

That's the kind of stuff you get from someone with an I.Q. lower than a School Zone speed limit.

I would check the choke constrictions myself. Some M21 chokes flare out towards the muzzle. If the chokes were checked with a simple brass gauge it may show more open than they actually are.

Maybe, I'm a hunter/shooter not a collector. That said M/F chokes in a double gun are not optimum for me. IC/IM would me a little better. SKT/F would be my choice in a 20Ga. terc 's response is something to consider also. No Winchester Xpert here!
So back to the maybe. Does the gun fit me? Is the gun lively in my hands, inspiring success with it?
To address your concerns. If the price is right chokes can be readily manipulated if your looking for a shooter.

Chief

Years ago, I had a Model 21 that was marked MOD and FULL but those were neatly lined through, and it was marked IMP CYL next to the marked through MOD and marked MOD next to the marked through FULL. Model 21 experts at the time told me that was the way Winchester did it. Don't know if that was true or not, but I didn't shoot the gun all that well and it flowed down the river of commerce for 50% more than I paid for it the year before.

This may not have anything to do with anything, but choke constriction can get to your head. I have always thought modified and full were just fine until steel shot and notox regs showed up. Every grouse and woodcock I ever killed, I killed with a modified choke, and pheasants were not lost when I hit them with my full choke 16 ga. Modified is what I counted on. That said, I don't buy guns to collect them, and admire men who can because though I don't do it, I understand it. The Winchester 21 is a gun I admire because of its strength, not its appearance. The Ithaca NID is the gun that fills my bill in that regard. Cheaper and sturdy. To be honest i would just want one gun to do it all in the strength, durability, and affordability arena, and the NID is as close as it gets because I want it U.S.A. built, and Merkel is not, so Wingmaster has to suffice. I am a doublegun fan.

I grew up with an Ithaca Model 37, ribbed 20 gauge and shot with it most of my life. It had a full choke and I was extremely good with it- even as a kid hunting rabbits, quail and squirrel. That's why I was so disheartened with this gun. I have been looking for a 20 gauge 21 for about a year now that I don't have to have shipped to me. With ANY chokes. I can get used to any gun chokes. I am real particular with my guns and don't want them messed with. I can shoot skeet with just about any chokes. I have a 12 gauge 21 that has been opened to CYL/CYL and it is a great skeet gun for me. I guess I just don't want another 21 that has been messed with. When I see someone take a gun like a 21 and put screws in chokes in it, I'd never want it. I would have been able to do just fine with the M/F. But I'd hate to buy it and find out it is messed up. It would have been fine if it was originally IC/IM, but I guess I don't want to spend that much money and have it messed with. So, maybe I'll just keep looking. There is a big show this weekend. I'll be there there looking. Thanks, guys.

I always carry a gauge in my car with me. But when I saw that this gun had been messed with I just felt sick and left. It's not that the chokes are opened- it's the fact that I have no idea who did the work. That's the bottom line. I'll probably keep looking. Thanks

You don't know that the chokes were opened. Measure them with a bore micrometer.

I intend to the first chance I get. They have a tag that says they are, though. The metal looks awfully thin. But you're right. Thanks. 👍

There are plenty of "all original" vintage shotguns for sale that are not so all original. Just saying.

Go by your first instincts!

You have already stated that the thought of these chokes possibly being altered made you feel sick about the gun. That feeling will never go away, so it's best to walk away!

The following is only my opinion. A guy can spend his money on whatever he wants and do with his stuff as he pleases.
I do however feel that it would be a special kind of dumbass to take a scarce set of sub gauge Model 21 barrels
and open up Full all the way to Improved Modified.

I'll bet you money, chalk or marbles those chokes are original.

I agree, Bob. One man's light full is another man's improved modified.

I was waiting for your input, Bob. What took you so darn long? Ha-ha!! You were absolutely right, buddy. I called over there this morning and started asking questions. I had the guy take the gun apart and he said it was stamped M/F. And he said the ticket said it is IC/IM. I asked him to measure the barrels. He said, "Oh, wait a minute. These chokes are M/F!" I told him I would be over and take a look at it again, later. So, after having my dentist pull a crown off of my tooth and fill a cavity. Then make a temporary tooth. I headed over. Sure enough, they had read their gauge wrong. It was choked M/F. So, thanks so much for all of your help and opinions gentlemen. I really appreciated it. Have a nice week!!

Well……… did you buy the darn thing ???

When you measure a barrel for choke, you are measuring constriction, not choke. Constriction has an effect on choke (the main one) which is defined as the percentage of the shot load striking inside a circle of defined diameter at a defined distance. We hope the constriction reflects choke, because it is easier to determine by measuring the barrel itself, whereas determining choke requires patterning, which requires counting the shot in the load and counting the number of shot pellets striking the board within the circle. With this information, a percentage can be determined. In addition to constriction, the shot size, shot load, charge weight, bore size, protective devices (shot cups, etc) can affect choke. If a premium shotgun is made to order, the customer will typically be asked what choke is desired, with what specific load, and the constriction will be adjusted to give a pattern percentage within the range of that choke. The choke will then be marked. If an economical gun has the choke marked by constriction alone, it may or may not pattern to that percentage. It would be bad to have a "falling out" with a friend or lose a customer over a question choke vs. constriction.
Mike

Thanks Mike. That is great info. I appreciate it. All I have is one of those brass gauges from CSMC. And I'll let you in on a little secret. Those things aren't even accurate. This gun's chokes compare with my other 20 gauge guns mark M/F. But I started measuring my other chokes like my Beretta & Browning chokes (even the 12 gauge guns) and some of them are a couple stages off. One of the Beretta chokes marked Modified showed IC with that gauge. On a few of them. But, in the end, the gun was so nice I decided to bring it home. It's going to be babied in a good home in my safe. I appreciated all the remarks. I missed some comments from the people I have on ignore. But, it's like Rosemary Clooney always said, Kay-Sarah, Sarah!! Take care.

I am going to call Cody later on and see if there is any paperwork. Their time zone is a little behind us here in Tree City, Indiana. 👍

Rotflmao! Only DimmyW would post "Kay-Sarah, Sarah" (I can't stop laughing) in place of the correct "Que Sera, Sera", famously done by Doris Day. Boobus Americanus who needs a seeing-eye dog to help with his gun-buying decisions. Too funny...
JR

^^^^^^ I'm sorry, but, I am ignoring you. ^^^^^^^ You have made too many stupid remarks in the past and caused to many problems for others to converse with you anymore. And it isn't fair for the intelligent, decent people on here to take up their time arguing with you and ruining this website for them. But, you have nice day.

I'd like to believe that you actually bought this gun DimmyW, but it seems like you just make up a lot of stuff.

When did you move to Indiana? You told us that you lived in the same house for over 40 years, and it was owned by your parents. You even posted a picture once, of a Corvette you said you owned, parked next to your house. It had Ohio license plates...

And the Dodge Charger you said you rented to take a shotgun to Connecticut for engraving also had Ohio plates. Remember, that was when you said you toured the Winchester factory?... well after it had already been permanently shut down. Later, after someone called you out on that B.S., you changed your story, and said you merely walked around the outside of the closed building. Does Indiana DMV really issue Ohio plates?


One other question DimmyW... If you really had John Roberts (and me) on IGNORE, then how could you see our Posts to then reply and tell us you are IGNORING us? It appears that the IGNORE function doesn't work for you any better than it does for the Nutty Professor. Covering your eyes with estrogen patches isn't going to help either of you transition if you keep removing them to peek at what you both claim to IGNORE.

Here's another tip: repeatedly editing your posts to remove shit you just made up doesn't work too well after you've been busted. And responding to things you claim you don't see makes you look like a fool. But that never stopped you.

^^^^^^^^^^I'm sorry, but whoever you are I won't respond to your post, because I have you on ignore and I won't read what you say or comment.^^^^^^^^^^ But, have a nice day anyway. 😊

Guess I told them a thing or two. 🤐

Yes DimmyW, you told us two things....

No. 1- You told us that you are still reading the Posts of those you claim to be IGNORING.

No. 2- You also told us that you are a fool... but we already know that.

BTW, it will be interesting to see if that heavy 20 ga. Model 21 you say you bought loses some weight after you put it in that 23% humidity dehydrator that you call a gun safe.

Read my post 670951 where I recommended you "measure" the chokes. Very few posters seem to think that is how you tell. A Winchester bored modified and full will show IC and IM on any choke gauge including a bore micrometer. Winchester chokes are notorious for being anemic. If you don't have this bit of knowledge as well as a bore micrometer, you have no business attempting to buy $5000 Winchesters.

You are absolutely correct, eightbore. Coming soon!! Among other things. Thanks! 👍

Interesting, my experience with Model 21's does not match up with eightbore's post. My 20 gauge 21 Skeet with two sets of barrels has skeet 1 and skeet 2 (in and out?) in the skeet barrels and measure tight on my non-micrometer measurement tool with the tighter barrel approaching modified. The other set of barrels which are marked M/F provide readings at tight modified and full. I wonder if these measurements are a result of the age of the gun (1948) thus the use of fiber wads? I anticipate that modern plastic wads may result in tighter or at least denser patterns.

My trap grade 21 12 gauge has barrels measure light full and full consistent with the markings on the barrels.

Thus I don't think these are anemic constrictions.

Schwings Model 21 book indicates that Skeet #1 has 87% of the pattern in a 30 inch circle at 20 yards and 33% at 40 yards. Skeet #2 is reported to have 93% of the pattern in a 30 inch circle at 20 yards and 50% at 40 yards. Skeet #2 is reported to provide the same shot distribution at 30 yards as the Skeet #1 at 20 yards.

After writing this I think one reason I miss the high going away shot in 5 stand is I am shooting the wrong barrel at that target.

jlb

That brass gage is useless for choke. I had a 16 ga. that the barrels were cut, someone took one of those choked gages and it stated full.
First, if you don't know the bore than you won't know the correct choke.

I have a Skeets gage that can read 16" into the barrel, read what it states then zero it and read the constriction. If you are not math-challenged, don't zero it, but I do.

Right, David. That is what I said in my post. I measured a couple that showed I/C and they were Modified chokes from Beretta. Or the likes. At least two of them that I measured and were factory--the gauge was way off a couple steps. I did measure a Browning, Ithaca 37 and Remington Wing master and all four were 20 gauges and the same on the gauge. So, I figured the 21 was full choke. The guy in the store showed me how he measured the chokes with the brass gauge and he didn't read it right. Then he wrote it wrong on the tag. I didn't measure it the first day I saw the gun. I should have. I'll know from now on. Thanks for the info and the help. I appreciate it, David.

Just for grins I thought I would post the device I use to measure choke in 20, 16 and 12 gauge barrels. It is a Frank Mittermeier Universal Choke Gauge probably from the middle 60's. I inherited this gauge from my father and I have found it to produce reproducible results corresponding to known choke in my guns.

An image of this device can be viewed at https://www.ebay.com/itm/1874566750...38722076&customid=&toolid=10050.

enjoy

jlb

Five posts and not one of the five mentions thousandths of an inch either for bore or choke measurements. That is the only measurement that means anything.

I understand eightbore, but there isn't anything more I can do at the moment. As long as the chokes are full and modified like is stamped on the barrels, I'm happy for now until I can get the correct instruments to measure exactly what they are. I just placed an order with Galazan last night for a few things I need. I'll let you know when things work out. But thanks for the advice.

I've had one of those for probably 40 years. Bought it from an ad in Shotgun News, it works well enough for my needs.
JR

I have seen those before, jlb. I think we discussed those on this website years ago. I believe somebody else had one of those. I can't remember who it was, though. Maybe it was you who brought it up before. But, thanks for sharing it with us. 👍