doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Toledo marked Spanish Shotgun

Can anyone help me with the source and dating of what seems to be a well made Spanish shotgun marked Toledo. No other names are on this gun. It has chopper lump barrels and M.U. marked on the flats.

Martin Ugarteburu Daryl
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/m-ugarteburu-shotgun.560867/

Cornell Pubs has a 1947 catalog repro
https://cornellpubs.com/product/3817/

H*1 is 1962

Can't tell if the engraving and gold on the top lever is the same as this 110
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...2-bore-ejector.cfm?gun_id=102145022#lg-2

Mlo 124 may be Modelo (model)

Not often seen but very nice quality, I have had two of them through the shop which I sold. Yes, that is the model 124.

Drew, thank you. I do think the mark you question is H 1 . Here are a couple more pics of the engraving. I had a fine Arrizabalaga that had a Model marked on the trigger guard tang in a similar manner. It seems interesting that the gun you picture from above has the removable sideplate lever on the right side, as does the one I pictured.

Removeable side plate levers that run right to left rather than left to right were common on Martin Ugarteburu's sidelock shotguns. As an aside Ugarteburu is one of my favorites among the Spanish gun makers. I'm of the opinion he had a sense and level of style that was rare among all shotgun makers.

Thank you Drew, Kyrie, and SKB. I know more than I did early this a.m. Nice to know that the maker seems to be considered a good one.

Can anyone tell me what the term “Toledo” stands for on the top lever. A google search came up with that term on an AyA over under shotgun, but I now see that a search of Ugarteburu guns yields several with Toledo.

Toledo is the name of a city in Spain, and Ohio :-)

Seriously, it's possible only the fellow who ordered the shotgun knows what he intended by having the top lever marked with "Toledo".

Let me share a few observations:

1) What we find on the top of the barrels and action of artisanal Spanish shotguns is usually advertising, decoration, or both.

2) The manufacturing data of artisanal Spanish shotguns is found on the shotgun's water table, barrel flats, and the bottom of the barrels.

3) With a very few exceptions, model names of artisanal Spanish shotguns are advertising, have little or no physical meaning, and are seldom physically applied to the shotguns by the makers.

4) Spanish artisanal shotguns come from a (at present) dying business model that is not generally well understood by anyone who doesn't speak with a Basque or Catalan accent, and many who do so speak. It's a cultural thing.

Kyrie, those are interesting thoughts. Thank you

In addition, Toledo, Spain was the traditional sword-making center since the Roman period. El Cid used Toledo swords; Tizona and Colada.
The steel acero toledano was pattern welded low carbon (for flexibility) steel for the interior and high carbon (for strength and sharpness) steel for the exterior.
https://www.battlemerchant.com/en/b...res-and-swords-damascus-and-toledo-steel

The high grade AYA is a "Toledo"
https://www.aya-fineguns.com/AYA-TOLEDO-OVER-UNDER-SHOTGUN-BOXLOCK.html

JNO. HY. ANDREW & CO. LTD. TOLEDO STEEL WORKS SHEFFIELD appears on high grade between the wars doubles by several Liege makers; including Verney-Carron, Jules Bury, Nicolas Lajot, L. Christophe & F. Thonon

The sword known as Tizona, today, was demonstrated to have been cast in Cordoba, and had steel produced in Damascus in it.

We have the swords today, but, nobody can document exactly whose swords they were.

Best,
Ted

It’s a quite story and I suspect it goes back to the trans-Arabian sea trade done before the present era.

Way back when I was in collage (in the last millennia) I had a minor in which we studied the origin and movement of “Damascus steel”.

The origin of the process that produces what we now call Damascus or Toledo steel can be traced back to what we now call India, from which steel made by that process was exported in the form of sword blades to what we now call the Middle East. Damascus was the largest break-of-bulk transshipment point through which the sword blades were marketed. Hence the steel becoming known as Damascus steel. No one knows just when the first shipment of steel was made, but I have heard some wild arguments on the subject.

From Damascus the sword blades (and finished swords using the sword blades) were traded along the southern shore of the Mediterranean Sea, eventually finding their way to Spain. Toledo, Spain became the European break-of-bulk point for these swords and blades and the swords/blades became known as “Toledo steel.”

At some point in time knowledge of the process used to produce Damascus/Toledo steel was exported from India to Damascus and the production of true Damascus steel was begun in Damascus. That knowledge was eventually traded into Spain, and the production of true Toledo steel began.

Given the similarities between the processes by which Japanese sword steel and Damascus steel are made there is a (sometimes bitter) controversy regarding whether the two steels are independent invention or one maker learned the process from the other.

It’s a twisty tale 😊

This is really fun. So much knowledge available.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p97fInNIiSMjHuMRzJp2pHmQ1QPwPDeJECNbNKzInI4/edit?tab=t.0

There was world trade long ago - 750 to about 1250
Scroll down about 1/2 way here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a96zUR-euesc1odcVR-j7iNCjjoOz7TU8P-AAWf4p0Y/edit?tab=t.0



Classic Toledo blades however were not made using Wootz, and have a smooth (rather than patterned) surface.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...phic_Examination_of_a_Toledo_Steel_Sword
(I could access the article by clicking on 'Read Full Text')

The manufacturing method was mainly based on the use of three superposed steel layers which were forged when hot by means of silicates as a fluxing agent. The two outer ones consist of an ultra-hard steel of a carbon content (0.80 mass% of C) close to an eutectoid, which enclose a soft iron core of a correspondingly lower C content. The composite was forged when hot until a desired blade shape was completed so as to achieve a sandwich-like structure of the steel layers. Finally, the sword was quenched in a salt liquor and was then hardened.

The carbon rich iron was sourced from the Mondragon region in the Basque Country.

Tensile strength of cold rolled AISI 1080 is about 85,000 psi but can be increased markedly via tempering; the process used for Toledo blades remains a secret.

My apologies to Daryl for OTing his thread.
I found the original article from 2000 regarding the analysis of Tizona
https://www.researchgate.net/public...y_of_the_steel_blade_of_the_sword_Tizona
"the blade was forged from low-carbon steel, and subsequently a surface layer... was produced by carburizing."
Another metallurgist wrote…this metallic structure "differs little from many other examples of medieval swords, axes, and knives... such a blade might have been produced almost anywhere in Europe over a thousand years from Roman to Early Modern times."

A follow-up article suggests the blade is from the late 11th century
https://www.researchgate.net/public...y_aceros_antiguos_aplicados_a_Tizona#pf4
The authors compared the steel in Tizona with a tack from the Celtiberian Necropolis of Numantia and a nail from the Late Roman Imperial Villa of the Procurator Metallorum in Cerro Muriano (Córdoba) and believed the composition and source to be similar...according to Google Translate

but this is (at least for me) more interesting...and understandable
https://www.academia.edu/35847672/The_swords_of_the_Cid_a_heros_weapons_in_fact_and_legend

You will need to create an account (free) with which I needed my much smarter spouse to help, but it can be done.
WARNING: it's written by one of those know nothing PhDs - in MATH for goodness sakes

Drew, no apology needed. I am enjoying the collective knowledge of all of you guys.

I had a friend who went to a knife maker in FL some 25-30 years ago and stayed while learning how to forge Damascus blades. After he got good at it I spent a couple days with him watching the process from start to finish.

His blades typically began with five alternated layers of carbon and nickel content steel, and ended in 320 layers. He made me five knives before he gave it up due to age. I treasure them. They are extremely high quality blades.

Stan's observation points out the difference between pattern welded barrels and blades.
There may be twisting for esthetic purposes, but the primary process with blades is repeated hammering and FOLDING. 320 layers starting with 5 layers requires 6 foldings.
The pattern in barrels is determined by how the lopin is 'stacked'



Top, left to right:
1. Rampant Lion
2. Chain
3. Boston, a symmetric large scroll 2 iron Crolle
4. Possibly Bernard

Bottom, left to right:
1. Star or American Flag (Ithaca)
2. A higher grade Damas Crolle, probably 3 or 4 iron
3. Washington
4. Similar to Boston, but possibly used for 2 Iron Oxford which was asymmetric.


Then the rods are TWISTED and helically hammer welded.

Today, my friend Marc Gettemans sent me some copies of a Martin Ugarteburu catalog. In it was my Model 124 and the highest of his grades, Model 125. Interesting reading.







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