doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Army & Navy CSL identification help:

Hello,

I came across an Army & Navy CSL double at auction several months ago and happened to land it at a reasonable price. The left hammer spur broke at some point in the past, and while a valiant attempt was made to fashion a fix by a previous owner, the hammer will need replacing. I have Blackley & Son in Scotland looking for a suitable pair of 30mm hammers in their stocks, so that shouldn't be an issue. It's a beautiful gun, probably the nicest in my growing collection thus far, but I am having trouble determining who made the gun for the CSL. I know that W&C Scott & Son, Westley Richards, and others all made guns for A&N, and A&N acted as agents for even some of the best of the Best Guns makers. This particular one is a sidelock non-ejector with Siemens Steel barrels featuring London proofs, though it does not feature a nitro proof, which I found quite interesting. It is chambered for 2-1/2 shells. It features some beautiful engraving, a treble bite with a doll's head extension and bolt, W. Anson marked and serialized forend latch system, and hammers that interlock with the latch, preventing the gun from being opened while the hammers are cocked. The double triggers are sprung for balance (with the sidelocks removed, the triggers drop to the rear under spring pressure. Lastly, the butt features steel toe and heel caps, with the middle featuring the classic English checkered wood butt. Removing the lockplates reveals a bridle resembling an embellished cursive D. The only markings on the inside of the lockplates is a single number '1' or possibly letter 'I' (eye) on each plate (left and right). Any help in establishing a provenance would be appreciated. The serial number is 9501.

Edit: Using Google Lens, it looks like the locks were made by Joseph Brazier (who I know made a lot of locks for everyone from the trade gun makers to the best of the London Best makers). That said, they did have a relationship with Westley Richards in the late 1800s, which allowed them to manufacture A&D actions. Still, I know just enough to give a lot of conjecture, but not enough to be rock-solid in narrowing down a maker.

Here are some images to see if they help:









Thanks in advance!

I love the Army Navy CSL shotguns. For me they have the most beautiful engraving, well proportioned and not excessive. Congratulations on acquiring the gun.

Some P Webbley or W&CScott similarities there…I have found lettering stamped on back of the frame before, so you might find some other clue if the stock comes off at some point

CJ

Clues as to age: Army & Navy Cooperative was created in 1871. They marketed guns made in Birmingham.
-- The SN is 9507, fairly low.
-- The barrels are Siemen's steel. Though Siemen took out his patent in 1865, steel barrels were not widely used before 1880. Purdey made his first in 1880.
-- The Anson fore-end patent use number is a high one 25453. William Anson took out his patent in 1872 and it ultimately became very widely used in the industry. There is an Anson fore-end on an 1881 Reilly PUN 3587 but PUN's cannot be reliably used to date a gun. Apparently PUN's were sold in blocks to gunmakers and if Scott made the gun, he had probably bought 5,000 of them. However, since it has a PUN you'd think it should be before 1886 when the patent expired.
-- The proof marks are 1887-1896.
-- So it looks like it's a late 1880's gun.

Edit: Joseph Brazier made highly-regarded locks then actions from at least the 1850's on. He apparently had several levels of quality the highest being "Ashes" which would be stamped thusly:

The University of Glasgow has limited A&N records, including a sale catalog from 1895
https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/Media_803949_smxx.pdf
and
https://www.housefraserarchive.ac.uk/series/?id=fras-309

Thank you, everyone, for your responses.

Drew Hause's info regarding Glasgow Uni's special archives collection of the House of Fraser (and thus, the A&N C.S.L.) records was exceptionally helpful. I gathered all the information I knew and that all of you were able to glean from my photos, and sent the archivist an email as per their instructions. Here's what they returned this morning:

Note that the purchase date is September 6th, 1890, not June 9th, due to the British practice of writing dates as day-month-year.

Ms. Rogers from the archives kindly sent along some extremely clear photos of the record books, including information regarding the order date (14/11/89 or November 14th, 1889) and the maker. In this case, I was far off base. This particular example was made by Edwin Charles Hodges, and is one of two consecutively numbered London sidelock non-ejector hammer guns made for A&N C.S.L. by Hodges. This would have been around the time he worked out of his home workshop at 8 Florence Street.

The price paid, adjusted for inflation, equates to £16,679.75 £2,971.97 in today's money, or $22,317.76 $3,977.85 for those of us on the west side of the pond. (Edit: Google was smoking something serious when it gave me the earlier numbers)

More info on Hodges from the website run by his descendant: https://hodgesgunmakers.yolasite.com/ec-hodges.php

The list of his clients is quite extraordinary. Atkin, Grant, Lang, Army & Navy, etc. He is known to have actioned the pair of Grants that Queen Victoria presented to Prince Albert (the future King Edward VII) for his birthday and Christmas in 1870.

Not a bad pickup at all, if I do say so myself.

Edit: The records show that it is a "D" grade gun by the A&N C.S.L. standard. I was able to find it in an old catalog of theirs from around the same time as the gun was sold.

Thanks for that. Hodges (the father) played a very important role in the creation of the English break-action shotgun. You are no doubt very aware of this. However, to put information in one place and in historical context, here is the Reilly history chapter on this event: Gene

*23 1852-56: Break Action, Pin-Fire Guns in UK., PART 1, Hodges & Lang

This is not a detailed recounting of how Lefaucheux’s break-action pin-fire breech-loader conquered the UK and changed gun history. However, the facts must be reviewed in brief so that Reilly’s part in it can be understood. (This is according to widely accepted gun-history legend; see below re Stephen Nash's rewriting of this narrative).

Castor Lefaucheux took out a patent for a break action gun in France in 1836. Several of these guns made their way to the UK over the years but were generally ignored or regarded as curiosities. However, at the 1851 Crystal Palace Exposition, Lefaucheux showed a single barrel pin-fire center-break gun.*23a It created a lot of interest.

Lefaucheux did not take out a patent on the design in UK so it was free for the taking. The gun was ridiculed by many of the UK gun establishment, in particular William Greener (senior), who called it a “French crutch gun.”

However, a young 18 year old apprentice gunsmith named Edward Charles Hodges*23b especially took notice. Following the closing of the fair, he embarked on a project to build a copy of the gun, which after some time was completed, probably one speculates in late 1852.



It Is not known how Hodges did this; did he buy a Lefaucheux (unlikely) or did he handle the gun and carefully take measurements and sketches? He could not have made the barrels himself so did he buy the barrels and lumps from Liège? There is no information on when Hodges completed his trial gun; neither he nor his sons ever commented.

(Note: French center-break shot-guns and rifles were available in the UK at this time and were known to gun-makers. Reilly in a letter to "The field" a few years later admitted to have "examined" such guns for a number of years previous and there are in-print recountings of British shooters using the French guns in the early-mid 1850's. Lefaucheaux was not the only French gun-maker exhibiting at Crystal Palace though his gun is the only one pictured.)

Over the following few months he worked to convince Joseph Lang to buy his gun and to make and sell versions of it. (Note: Hodges later made a good living making center-break pin-fire actions for all the major gun manufactures in London, This leads inevitably to speculation that he concentrated on perfecting the action and stock and indeed may have used barrels/lumps purchased in Liège, a simple and cheap way to forward the design).

Joseph Lang had started out as a silversmith and like Reilly later morphed into a gunsmith. In the 1820’s he was essentially selling guns Joseph Manton sent to him on consignment. When Manton went bankrupt in 1826, Lang bought his left-over stock, barrel borers etc. For the next 25 years he made guns at 7 Haymarket Street, London.*23c By 1826 he had created a 28 yard shooting gallery in a neighboring building, which became well known, and even advertised access to two billiards tables for his customers.*23d


In 1852 he moved his shop to 22 Cockspur Street; the shooting gallery closed. The company remained there until 1874.*23e Joseph Lang died in 1869 and his firm was subsequently run by his son.



Probably in 1853 after his move Lang finally succumbed to Hodges’ entreaties, bought Hodges' gun, and began working on the center-break concept.

By early 1854 he had a working gun ready for sale which followed pretty much the design of Lefaucheux’s original gun although beefing up parts of it. He also tried to make it look as much like a percussion gun as possible, with wooden fore-end, etc., no doubt thinking that familiarity in looks would help its acceptance. His gun, however, though originally following the Lefaucheux concept of using two bites on the lumps, ultimately wound up using only one.

Note: The original Lang guns apparently did not have forcing cones in front of the breech following Lefaucheux's example; British gunmakers soon changed this.*23f

In this respect per comments in the UK press there was the distinct possibility that Lang was using Liège made barrels with lumps, which were later modified by English gunsmiths and that this continued into 1856-59. This is circumstantial evidence that Hodges had followed the same route.

In a pamphlet published in January 1857 to hawk the pin-fire, Lang wrote that he had been shooting break action pin-fires for three years.*23g

This would seem to indicate that he began shooting his own breech-loading guns (or at least breech-loading guns in general) in early 1854, which is as good a guess for the date of his first pin-fire gun as any. (The earliest extant datable Lang pin-fire is from 1858. One well-known British gunsmith has stated that he believes he may be able to locate two Lang pin-fire center-break guns with bills of sale dated to 1854. However, no documentation has been forthcoming.)

Lang continued privately to refine his gun and in summer 1855 he showed it at the Paris Exposition Universelle and won a gold medal for “excellence of construction.”*23h

Interestingly, from 1854-1858 no Lang commercial advertisements for the pin-fire can be found. The gun early on was hardly mentioned in the UK sporting press and indeed as late as November, 1856 editors of "The Field" appear to have been confused about the details of the gun or its variants.*23i. Whether Lang sold even one of his guns before the Paris Fair is an open question.

In late 1855 or early 1856 John Henry Walsh (aka "Stonehenge") (shortly thereafter to become editor of "The Field") published a review of Lang's gun in his book Manual of British Rural Sports. This was first real acknowledgement and public awareness of the new gun.



Gradually, as the concept became accepted over the next three years beginning in late 1856-early 1857, a storm of controversy, a print “flame war,” erupted in the British press with a very conservative group of gun owners adamantly maintaining that the “crutch gun” could not stand up to strong charges of British powder with a few equally strong willed upper-class users touting its convenience, safety and general viability.*23j

Note: Lang comes across as insufferably arrogant in his letters to the press; witness his 1) 1858 advertisements labeling others' center-break guns as "rubbish"*23k; and, his 2) border-line insulting exchange in June 1859 with the editor of "The Field" over whether he was going to submit guns for the July 1859 "The Field" breech-loaders vs muzzle loaders trial. "I told you that nothing should induce me to have my name mixed up in such a farce."*23l

**Note: Stephen Nash, a pin-fire expert, has published an excellent and erudite examination of the British adaptation of the French breech-loading concept. He has postulated credibly, based on analysis of existing guns and gun sketches, that Hodges and Lang adopted elements of Beringer's center break concepts in their gun, vice those of Lefaucheaux (though Lefaucheaux gets the credit for creating the pin-fire cartridge).*23m
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/lever-over-guard-origins

I seem to recall that David Trevallion has a pair of Reilly hammers. If you'd like, I'll give him a call.