doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Gerhard Schilling combo gun

I have serious reservations that the dreiling is a Gesellenstück(Master Mechanic Exam piece), as Bernhard Merkel's trademark is on it. I thumbed thru Schilling makers and did not see one Gerhard Schilling but there was a firm that made/serviced barrel marking machines & the likes under the name of Schilling & Kraemer. But his name was Gebhardt Schilling. So with all that, I hazard a guess that Gerhard Schilling was a firearms merchant and not an actual maker.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Federal is in Anoka, Minnesota and owned by a Czech group now.

I am confused by the Drilling talk because all I see in the initial posting is a Bockbüchsflinte

I could not be really sure here about this BBF - I had muddied the waters by mentioning my own Drilling then, mea culpa ! -, and my idea was really more of a conjecture than a truly reasoned (elementary?) Watsonian deduction... as I very readily admit.

There are many Schillings in Suhl and also in Zella-Mehlis (even today, e.g. the world-famous Dr.-Ing. Jörg Schilling, probably by now the best and most scientifically anointed grand matter of case hardening anywhere), but I could not find any gunmaker by this name. The Schilling forge, that one yes. But that was a forge.

So it could either be the seller's name of some gunshop anywhere, or a gunsmith, or the gunowner (which was rare on the rib itself, initials or coat-of-arms being preferred then, but it did happen).
As to the italics "B.M.", I am not sure whether the initials would legally qualify as a "trademark". In a Gesellenstück on the other hand, the journeyman-to-be might have procured the raw barrels from a barrel maker, and then put them together. Ot he might even have procured the barrel combination as such from a Rohrschlosser and then have fine fitted it to the system that he had to assemble and tune, which again he had gotten in the raw from a Systemmacher.

True specialists like Axel Eichendorff, Axel Pantermühl (R.I.P. 2024), Hendrik Frühauf, Flintenkalle (Karl-Heinz Pape) or comparable such Geonim (sit venia verbo Iudaeorum) would be far better able than I, to give a more educated opinion.

Carcano

It was already said by my predecessors in this thread: cartridges and hulls are being produced at least by Fiocchi and Cheddite. Furthermore, by Prévot in France, who are a rather reputable small family enterprise since more than half a century, and who also load 24 ga slugs (!).
https://www.cartouches-prevot.com/
There is also one Turkish producer, as I faintly remember. But I do not know who exactly makes the hulls and wads for Federal. I would suppose they buy them on the world market.

The 6,5x52R and the .25-35 Win have viertually identically measuements, but RATHER different maximal use pressure The .25-35 is set distinctly higher by SAAMI than the 6,5x52R by CIP. Now the actual REAL pressures of the factory cartridges might not be so far apart in the end, but the limit are, I think by almost 50 % plus ? Someone will easily set me straight.

The 6,5x52R is rarely used in Germany, although it is a decent roe deer cartridge such as the old 6,5x58R and the new 6x70 R. In some German states, it is also licit on small (striped) boars e.g. (piglets in pyjama). Modern reloading data for leadless bullets seem to exist. The proper diameter is .261", I think, rather than .257"?
The 24 gauge is very rarely used today for anything. But nice doubles and combined guns with such small gauge barrels are a lot easier to find in Germany, Austria, France, Italy, than in the USA or the UK. Also, many ex-military blackpowder rifles turned into sporters, have been rechambered for the 24 gauge and 28 gauge.

Carcano

The 25-35 is rated at 44,000 PSI or 37,000 CUP by SAAMI. Correct bullet diameter here is .257 - .258. The cartridge is pretty much a has been over here, at least in my area.

I couldn't compare it to CIP specifications because all my searches turned up for 6.5 X 52R was the Carcano cartridge. Certainly the specs. are out there, I just don't know how to find them.

CIP specs for the 6,5x52R (in English language):
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page14.pdf
So, that's 2450 bar Pmax. Projectile max diameter: 6,58 mm.

CIP specs for the .25-35 Win (in English language):
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/25-35-win-220214-en.pdf
So, that's 3050 bar Pmax. Projectile max diameter: 6,55 mm.

Carcano

Interesting. I would not have expected there to be that much difference.

The Carcano cartridge is 6.5x52 (rimless) and has a larger head diameter than the 25-35/ 6.5x52R (. 442"vs .422"). It is known that permitted pressure for the 6.5x52R is significantly less than for 25-35, but the American ammo has been used in 6.5x52R "Bring Backs" since the end of the war and the only complaints I have heard about had to do with different points of impact. Bullet diameter for the 6.5x48R S&S, 6.5x58R S&S, and 6.5x70R is about .261"; but 6.5x52R is very close to the .257" of the 25-35. Even in this small Alabama town I was able to buy 24 ga. shells through the local Feed & Seed Store. There is no directory of workmen's touchmarks, so initials found on German guns are difficult or impossible to ID, whereas trademarks may be identified.
Mike

For those that much malign & poormouth equating initials to mechanics, I must say it much easier to say it is impossible & cast it aside rather than delve into the mechanics & their craft. That's the easiest path & the one most travelled. To correlate the mechanic's specialty to the effort. There may be multiple possibilities but over time when you have the same number of variables as equations, one mechanic stands alone. In this case, BM is in script/font/type just like B. Merkel's BeMeSu and is seen on countless B. Merkel's examples. So I for one do not see how one can sit @ a computer & type it is impossible to equate BM to Bernhard Merkel? There really is NO other possibility.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse