doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Gerhard Schilling combo gun

I have found a lot of information on this gun as far as “Gerhard Schilling” whose name is on the rib and the Schilling Forge in Suhl but cannot find any evidence of other examples by this maker or perhaps very low number made. Could have been a personal gun perhaps. It is 20ga/70 x5.6x35R Veirling round. I have shot some reformed 22 hornet brass(.224 50gr) offline but could only find 7 shells) and may just trim some 22 hornet brass or even just see if it will chamber the hornet and fire. I actually used a 1878 Winchester made patented 22WCF (same case as the 5.6x35R) hand reloading tool with success(had to grind/file off the points of the bullets to make them reload right as they had sharp point.

Has some ebony and nice figure in stock and also a pop up front ivory bead. Petite and very light weight gun I am think 4.5-5lbs. Don’t have a clue on year of manufacture(perhaps pre-WW2???). I did find a Gerhard Schilling as a officer in SS at Auschwitz(with a high rank) but not sure fits this Gerhard schilling who there is some publications about (the forge in Suhl was reopened as a museum and reports of his death as last owner of schilling forge at age 94 in 2014). That would have put him born 1920 so only 21 at 1941. A Stuba ranks shows a highest rank an enlisted man could reach in SS.

Any insight or information you all can add would be appreciated. I can’t locate any other examples or records of this same maker although they obviously made barrels for other makers. Perhaps they were also blacksmiths as well.


[img]https://postimg.cc/gallery/Gb2crFR[/img]

By the looks of the gun, it could be a Gesellenstück.

Your musings about the name are licit and interesting, but Schilling was a very common name in Suhl and beyond, and so was Gerhard.
More helpful might be the italic script B.M. initials; probably the Rohrschlosser (tube mechanic, tube knitter).

Bernhard Merkel.....

https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-merkel-bernhard/


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

It passed thru the Suhl Proof Facility in June of 1940 and has what looks to be a copper dim light flip-up sight. I have seen those before & will have to dig a little. It was made for cold climate use per the Asian Water Buffalo horn triggerbow guard. It was made by Bernhard Merkel and I am not sure of the engraver.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

bkdean
funksauer,
Your gun was proofed under the 1939 proof law, which mandated it be marked to reflect the name the cartridge was commonly called. The marking clearly indicates it is chambered for the Vierling (5.6x35R), rather than the Hornet (5.6x36R) cartridge. However, there has often been confusion concerning the proper cartridge for many of these rifles. The main difference between the latest Vierling and the Hornet, other than a small difference in ballistics, is the rim of the Hornet was thickened to prevent it's use in older 22WCF rifles. By the 1940s, the Hornet was pretty widely used but the Vierling was also still widely used, especially for hunting. Consequently, your idea to check the actual chambering has merit, in my considered opinion. It may have been made for either of the cartridges or subsequently modified to use the Hornet. When you check it be sure to carefully close the action because closing it with force on a Hornet cartridge case in a Vierling chamber can damage the gun. The fact that it is chambered for the more modern 70mm 20 ga. shells rather than 65mm lends some credence to the possibility of a Hornet chamber. When I handload for my own, verified, Vierling chambered BF, I use Hornet cases that have had the rims thinned from the rear and had the primer pockets deepened to match, with a primer pocket uniformer. I use common Hornet dies and shell holder with the modified cases and have satisfactory results. I use 45-grain .223" bullets and do not need to shorten them as you do with the 50-grain ones. If you have a Vierling chamber and do not have either the facilities or inclination to modify Hornet cases, you can use purchased 22WCF cases. Your rifle seems very nice, and you should be able to have many years of use and fun with it.
Mike

Here is the name on the rib.

So Bernard Merkel was the tube fitter only??? Or maker of gun?


https://postimg.cc/nsVkzb2h

bkdean funksauer. That is a very nice drilling and should make a good quail/squirrel gun.

A Niederwilddrilling such as this today is a charming thing of the past, due to very different hunting conditions.

As I may have mentioned, I recently acquired a nice though slightly (ab)used unnamed Drilling, chambered for 24/65, 24/65 and 6,5x52R. Handles and points like a charm.
I still have to shoot it, though.

I just love drillings. I've owned several and am now perfectly content with the two I've worked into.

Question. Are 24 gauge hulls, ammo or loading components available? That would have to be a lot of fun. The 6,5 X 52R is available over here and I suspect it might even be more popular in Germany, no?

I bought a couple boxes of 32 ga. shotshells for a song and a dance, thinking I could pick up an old single barrel gun for not much money. Ha...did I get a surprise!!! Doubles are available, for a king's ransom.

24 gauge components & cartridges are readily available due to high consumption in Italy; therefore Fiocchi & Federal both offers anno. too, Fiocchi must have a partnership or use the same factory in Missouri, Kansas or wherever it is? If I am using close working Dogs, I pretty much use it as a staple. And if Pen Raised anything, I most definitely reach for it first.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I have serious reservations that the dreiling is a Gesellenstück(Master Mechanic Exam piece), as Bernhard Merkel's trademark is on it. I thumbed thru Schilling makers and did not see one Gerhard Schilling but there was a firm that made/serviced barrel marking machines & the likes under the name of Schilling & Kraemer. But his name was Gebhardt Schilling. So with all that, I hazard a guess that Gerhard Schilling was a firearms merchant and not an actual maker.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Federal is in Anoka, Minnesota and owned by a Czech group now.

I am confused by the Drilling talk because all I see in the initial posting is a Bockbüchsflinte

I could not be really sure here about this BBF - I had muddied the waters by mentioning my own Drilling then, mea culpa ! -, and my idea was really more of a conjecture than a truly reasoned (elementary?) Watsonian deduction... as I very readily admit.

There are many Schillings in Suhl and also in Zella-Mehlis (even today, e.g. the world-famous Dr.-Ing. Jörg Schilling, probably by now the best and most scientifically anointed grand matter of case hardening anywhere), but I could not find any gunmaker by this name. The Schilling forge, that one yes. But that was a forge.

So it could either be the seller's name of some gunshop anywhere, or a gunsmith, or the gunowner (which was rare on the rib itself, initials or coat-of-arms being preferred then, but it did happen).
As to the italics "B.M.", I am not sure whether the initials would legally qualify as a "trademark". In a Gesellenstück on the other hand, the journeyman-to-be might have procured the raw barrels from a barrel maker, and then put them together. Ot he might even have procured the barrel combination as such from a Rohrschlosser and then have fine fitted it to the system that he had to assemble and tune, which again he had gotten in the raw from a Systemmacher.

True specialists like Axel Eichendorff, Axel Pantermühl (R.I.P. 2024), Hendrik Frühauf, Flintenkalle (Karl-Heinz Pape) or comparable such Geonim (sit venia verbo Iudaeorum) would be far better able than I, to give a more educated opinion.

Carcano

It was already said by my predecessors in this thread: cartridges and hulls are being produced at least by Fiocchi and Cheddite. Furthermore, by Prévot in France, who are a rather reputable small family enterprise since more than half a century, and who also load 24 ga slugs (!).
https://www.cartouches-prevot.com/
There is also one Turkish producer, as I faintly remember. But I do not know who exactly makes the hulls and wads for Federal. I would suppose they buy them on the world market.

The 6,5x52R and the .25-35 Win have viertually identically measuements, but RATHER different maximal use pressure The .25-35 is set distinctly higher by SAAMI than the 6,5x52R by CIP. Now the actual REAL pressures of the factory cartridges might not be so far apart in the end, but the limit are, I think by almost 50 % plus ? Someone will easily set me straight.

The 6,5x52R is rarely used in Germany, although it is a decent roe deer cartridge such as the old 6,5x58R and the new 6x70 R. In some German states, it is also licit on small (striped) boars e.g. (piglets in pyjama). Modern reloading data for leadless bullets seem to exist. The proper diameter is .261", I think, rather than .257"?
The 24 gauge is very rarely used today for anything. But nice doubles and combined guns with such small gauge barrels are a lot easier to find in Germany, Austria, France, Italy, than in the USA or the UK. Also, many ex-military blackpowder rifles turned into sporters, have been rechambered for the 24 gauge and 28 gauge.

Carcano

The 25-35 is rated at 44,000 PSI or 37,000 CUP by SAAMI. Correct bullet diameter here is .257 - .258. The cartridge is pretty much a has been over here, at least in my area.

I couldn't compare it to CIP specifications because all my searches turned up for 6.5 X 52R was the Carcano cartridge. Certainly the specs. are out there, I just don't know how to find them.

CIP specs for the 6,5x52R (in English language):
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page14.pdf
So, that's 2450 bar Pmax. Projectile max diameter: 6,58 mm.

CIP specs for the .25-35 Win (in English language):
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/25-35-win-220214-en.pdf
So, that's 3050 bar Pmax. Projectile max diameter: 6,55 mm.

Carcano

Interesting. I would not have expected there to be that much difference.

The Carcano cartridge is 6.5x52 (rimless) and has a larger head diameter than the 25-35/ 6.5x52R (. 442"vs .422"). It is known that permitted pressure for the 6.5x52R is significantly less than for 25-35, but the American ammo has been used in 6.5x52R "Bring Backs" since the end of the war and the only complaints I have heard about had to do with different points of impact. Bullet diameter for the 6.5x48R S&S, 6.5x58R S&S, and 6.5x70R is about .261"; but 6.5x52R is very close to the .257" of the 25-35. Even in this small Alabama town I was able to buy 24 ga. shells through the local Feed & Seed Store. There is no directory of workmen's touchmarks, so initials found on German guns are difficult or impossible to ID, whereas trademarks may be identified.
Mike

For those that much malign & poormouth equating initials to mechanics, I must say it much easier to say it is impossible & cast it aside rather than delve into the mechanics & their craft. That's the easiest path & the one most travelled. To correlate the mechanic's specialty to the effort. There may be multiple possibilities but over time when you have the same number of variables as equations, one mechanic stands alone. In this case, BM is in script/font/type just like B. Merkel's BeMeSu and is seen on countless B. Merkel's examples. So I for one do not see how one can sit @ a computer & type it is impossible to equate BM to Bernhard Merkel? There really is NO other possibility.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

And if trademarks are so easy to identify, is this August Schüler's work¿¿¿ There's a trademark fore & aft of his name plus it bands the serial number on this >>On-Hand<< August Schüler in 1893¿¿¿


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I suggest you read my remarks carefully, I did not say it is impossible to identify touchmark initials. I said it is difficult or impossible to do so. Also, I didn't say it is easy to identify trademarks, since there are directories of trademarks, I said they can be. If the B.M. (in script) is in a trademark directory, it is identified thereby. If it is not in a trademark directory and there is no touch mark directory, then it is difficult to identify. I would be astonished to learn there is only one possible identification for a B.M. (in script), considering all the German given names starting with B and family names starting with M. Also, I can believe some trademarks are not shown in some directories, so would not be easy to identify.
Mike