doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Tobin Collector’s Association?

TOBIN ARMS MFG. CO. LTD. 12-BORE SIDELOCK NON-EJECTOR, serial no. 16555, circa 1912, 30in. nitro reproved Krupp steel barrels (reproved in 1971) with file-cut matt rib, 2 3/4in. chambers, bored approx. full choke in both, hold-open toplever, manual safety, flats marked 'PAT. MAY 23 -98 PATENTS PEND'G', indicating C.M. Wollam patent No. 498043 of May 23rd, 1893, border engraving surrounding scenes of duck, retaining traces of original colour-hardening and finish, 14in. stock (cracked at hand) including buttplate

I have just bought the above at Holts. It is choked full and full,,and if I use it with Bismuth for ducks I will be paying almost as much for a box of 25 as the gun just cost me.

I haven’t received it yet, but hope that as it was reproved in 1971(by which time non-corrosive cartridges were the norm) that the bores will be OK.

Thanks to Imgur I was not able to post the pictures..

Thanks to IMGBOX I now can so:-




The action, effectively a hybrid between a box-lock and side lock (and perhaps combining the disadvantages of both) is intriguing.

I am sure that there is not a Tobin Collectors Association on this side of the pond, but do they inspire affection Stateside or in Canada?

Parabola, you can do a Tobin search on the doublegunshop. You will find info and pictures that I posted on Frank Major Tobin’s personal side by side. Quite an elaborately engraved gun. You will also see the highest catalog grade gun that I posted as well as the inexpensive Tobin .22 single shot rifle from Tobin that was given away to young folks who could sell a few magazine subscriptions. They are fun guns with quite a few catalogs available and lots of interesting history. I think there is also a good article in the Double Gun Journal about Frank Tobin’s personal gun and maybe another general article on Tobins.

I would assume Daryl is your best source of info- or Researcher. There are some gorgeous ones out there. I have a 16 ga in a similar grade as described above with an English stock. I’ve actually had two just like that ( both 16s ) and chose to sell one rather than preserve the pair, with a bit of regret now that I think about it.

I see as I was typing Daryl chimed in!!

Thanks Daryl, there is a lot if information on the Forum search,and I have got DGJ Volume 5 No. 1 and Volume 8 No. 1 so look forward to re-reading Researcer’s Articles on the Tobin.

Oddly enough I have also got Mr. Money’s book and will look at what he says about the Tobin though he us clearly not an enthusiast,

I have one graded made in Canada,

And one of the units that was made in New York

I think Drew has some pictures of it on his website

Here you go, mostly courtesy of Daryl, Dave & CZ
Most of the ads were from Rod & Gun in Canada
https://docs.google.com/document/d/...jC8g/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.oq5iwpt7tnmp

If you are thinking you got a gun that compares favorably to an English side lock, I’m guessing you will be disappointed.

The design is primitive, but, clever in a few of its details. The springs as cocking rods with the rollers built into the ends was actually similar to an English patent, the name escapes me at the moment, but, it was a good idea. My own personal opinion is the area of the frame that is hogged out to make room for the springs, tumblers and whatnot, is material the design can ill afford to lose, and that became an issue when progressive powders came into common use. I’ve seen Tobins with bent frames. A gun that lived in England all its life would likely have seen fewer big number loads, and perhaps will be in good shape. I’m guessing if the design was built of heat treated 4140 chrome moly steel, it wouldn’t be an issue. Americans tended to view their guns as tools, and they were often run hard until they broke.

The Fox is a good American design. So is the New Ithaca Double, or, NID. There are a few that are very reliable, cheap, and charming, but, like a pretty girl with big buck teeth, the Stevens 311, and the Ithaca Lefever Nitro Special come to mind. I hope you enjoy the Tobin, but, just my opinion, it isn’t one to use all the time.

Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Ted, Greener’s Empire guns used the mainsprings as cocking rods - that May be the one you are thinking of?

I thought it was a higher end English gun than that, but, you could be right. I owned 4 or 5 of them, some were parts guns, two were gorgeous.

A Tobin is a simple gun to take down. Let us know what you find when you get in it.

Best,
Ted

For those who did not see Frank Major Tobin's gun, here is the gun, finished in Pyro Oxide, a special add on.

Beautiful gun but what is pyro oxide? Is that another name for charcoal bluing?

'Pyro-Oxidized Black' was introduced with the Black Diamond Grade No. 55 in 1908



The No. 20 Simplex first had case hardened lockplates, but I believe later the same process which I've never seen described.

Drew, that is a good find. Thank you.

You're welcome Daryl. Not sure where I got that
Rod & Gun in Canada was a gold mine of Tobin advertising

Not positive, but, it may have been the hot version of black oxide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_oxide

I bought a black diamond 12 gauge from our own John Mann, longer ago than I care to remember. It was a durable finish, unlike the cold version of black oxide. A friend still owns that gun.

Best,
Ted

That Black Diamond Model sheet is from my Tobin catalog collection --



My 12-gauge Black Diamond --



The Black Diamond was the first Tobin I got. Found it at the Rockingham County Fairgrounds gun show in the Shenandoah Valley in the spring of 1988. That gun and the Tobin ads I was finding while researching things Fox at the Library of Congress and feeding the info to McIntosh for "The Finest Book in the World" as Headrick nicknamed it led me down the Tobin rabbit hole!!

That is an awfully nice Tobin. It is really difficult to find guns like that.

Seven or so years later Baker Gun & Forging Co. replaced their color case hardened frame and lockplates Batavia line with the black oxide finished Black Beauty --



and Black Beauty Special --



In 1932 Savage gave the black finish a try when they introduced their SP-/SPE-Grade Ansley H. Fox guns --

That black oxide treatment on Bakers was from the 1913 to 1919 period. Then , after Baker sold the gun making part of their business to Folsom in 1919, the black oxide treatment was used on the grades above the Batavia Leader. Those grades using the black oxide , or similar, were the Black Beauty Special, a few single barrel trap guns , Paragon ,and the DeLuxe. As I recall the Expert was advertised that way, but I have never seen an example.

Ted, I have collected the gun but not shot it as yet.I have taken some pictures as asked. I have also added the Holts illustration to my original post now I can use IMGBOX.







With Krupp Fluid Steel barrels it appears to be the $70 Trap model. It has a broad file cut rib with a tiny mid-bead. It weighs about 7 1/4 pounds.



British proof in 1971, possibly when it was imported but perhaps so that it could be could be sold on to a new owner.



The “cracked at hand” appears to be this small crack behind the top tang and which appears fairly superficial.

Show us a picture of the gun from the top, action closed, and where the opening lever is.

That looks like a graded Canadian gun, built in Woodstock, in pretty good shape from the photos.

Use it in good health.

Best,
Ted

I recall reading somewhere, it may have been in an old Thread on this forum, that the Pyro-oxidized finish on Tobin guns was a version of the Carbonia Blue used by Colt, S&W, and other companies.

It was known for its' durability, better than hot salts bluing, and was developed by the American Gas Furnace Co.

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/carbonia-bluing/

Looks like a nice No. 70 Trap Grade. From Tobin Catalog No. 110, the earliest Woodstock catalog I know of --



My No. 70E --

Ted, lever is still slightly to right of centre. I suspect that the barrels were re-blacked at the time it was re-proofed in 1971, but cannot be sure. Externally it has a few storage or handling dints as you would expect from a 110 year old gun, but I suspect it has not had a great deal of use either before or since 1971.

It was re-proofed at .729 and the bores appear perfect but may have had a hone or polish before it was submitted to British proof. I don’t know whether Tobin made it at .729” or slightly smaller. I take it that the circled BP marks stamped just behind the FLUID STEEL KRUPP ESSEN markings was a factory proof nark.



Scribed inside the forend is a date 7/5/41 and a cryptic notation that I think may be a dealer’s price code (I have seen similar in antique shops).

We will never know its history but I wonder if it was brought to this country in WW1 or 2 by a Canadian Army or RCAF Officer, or it may have been shipped here in 1941 at our time of need?

Had it been a commercial importation I would expect to see pre-1925 British Proofmarks.

None of my Tobins had the BP mark up on the tubes, regardless of what steel type, Demoya, Krupp, whatever, was marked. I don’t know who put that there.

That gun is pristine compared to most I have seen on this side of the pond. Many look like the owners quit using them for hunting and used them as canoe paddles for the last fifty years of ownership.

Best,
Ted