doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Bismuth vs Kent Tungsten Matrix

Ted, ingenuity will find an answer at a reasonable price. Who thought we'd be feeding cars corn?

As for being expensive, what isn't these days? What does a round of drinks cost at the golf or curling club, or green fees? More than a box of non-toxic shells.

I think we've had it pretty good, at the range or in the woods all these years, and that we're spoiled.

It's a matter of choosing what's most important: shooting, being a clothes-horse chasing women, drinking, drugs, smoking, golfing and curling, sports events, travel.

I choose hunting.

The future cost will be in the target games, you know, the fellows that put thousands upon thousands of rounds through their guns per year. Gun clubs will be first on the list, maybe rifle ranges also(California perhaps?)as they generate heaps of lead.
Someone will always produce some kind of nontox for the 12ga., and it won't be cheap.
...but those heady smallbores!

Ted,

Tin shot has been available on and off in europe. It is soft and cheap...but even lighter than steel. Good fer targets and thats about it but it will work.

Hunting is gunna get expensive though, no way around that if your going to be using small bores and/or tight old chokes.

Imagine though if your going to plunk 2k plus on a gun, the cost of a few boxes of shells a year at $20 - $50 is not gunna show on the radar?

Best,
Mark

I've shot Kent TM, Federal TP, and Bismuth. The tungsten based shots are 100% better than bismuth in my opinion. I duck and goose hunt a lot and am speaking from experience.

Bismuth Cartridge is out of business, Federal won't be producing the Tungsten Polymer loads any longer, and Kent TM is $35 a box for 1 1/4 duck loads. Once I'm out of my stock of shells, which should last me a couple seasons, I'm back to steel and a modern gun I suppose. I just can't afford to spend $3 a shot for the amount of shooting I do in a season.

Kent TM won't last long at those kinds of prices, I think their sales will fall off to the point that they stop producing it. I think the EcoTungsten will be more than $1.50 a shell when it all plays out. I ordered some for a friend in England and was stunned at the tiny bags he got for the amount of money it cost him.

I agree that the days of lead shot for game shooting in the US are numbered. Just heard that the government has made the entire North Slope are of Alaska a non-toxic zone. That's just them starting the process where there is barely anyone to complain. It's coming boys, better get yourselves ready. Anybody young enough to still be shooting in 20 years will see it.

I've shot live pigeons at a club that requires non-toxic shot believe it or not. Their ring faces a river and they started using it to appease the local government and wildlife services.



Destry

California has already banned lead bullets for hunting in condor country. The map I just saw looks like it covers about 1/3 of the state, and it's a big state. If I understand correctly, you can't even shoot rabbits with a .22 using lead bullets in those areas. It could get ugly, and soon.

I was on another board today and someone there posted that Eley (UK) is going to import bismuth loads soon. I don't know who the dealer will be but the load is listed on their website.

Jim

On Eley Hawk webbsite is following:

Bismuth is a metal (Bi) alloyed with tin (Sn) to give similar characteristics to lead shot. Bismuth shot is manufactured in-house by Eley Hawk using the Bleimeister or “short drop” process, the same method Eley Hawk use to produce lead shot. The resultant shot
has similar properties to lead shot in a modern trap cartridge.

Niklas

The Eley cartridges loaded with bismuth are already available here if you know where to get it apparently. The cartridges we used at the live pigeon club were 1 1/18 of #7 bismuth shot loaded by Eley. I still have a couple of them and the box they came in.


Destry

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/BismuthArticle/index.htm is a series of articles on how to make nontoxic shot with bismuth.

I do not know if bismuth works well in small shot sizes that might normally be used in small gauge guns, such as 28 gauge. Bismuth is more brittle than lead, we are told, so smaller shot sizes may allow the pellets to break up too much - I do not know. Maybe #7 or #6.5 would work out. Lower density calls for larger pellet size than lead for similar external performance, anyway.

The Ecotungsten shot is sold in #7.5 as the smallest size. Same density as lead, and a little harder. $50 per kilo - 2.2 lb. About $22.75/lb. About $1.42 per ounce. About $1.07 for a 3/4 oz load (28 gauge). Loads with normal lead shot wads, etc. I could stand that cost for hunting, but would not like it for target shooting. The harder NiceShot might pattern better than lead due to increased hardness - have to try to know for sure.

About 5 years ago I did moderate amount of pattern testing bismuth (Bi-Sn alloy shot) in 12 and 16 gauge doubles with nominal full and 1/2 chokes (based on measured constriction) and 75 cm barrels. These were either "upland" loads or handloads -- muzzle velocities in the 1200-1250 fps range -- and shot charges from 24 to 36 grams, usually 28-30 grams (1,0 to 1 1/16 oz). Got really tight, even patterns, with 1/2 choked barrels giving over 70% at 40 yards and full choke barrels giving about 80%. Shot sizes were #6 and #3 (labled #4) I found very few holes on paper that were from fragmented pellets. One load was factory buffered #5 shot, but was not patterened on paper. The 24 gram loads were 16 ga scatter loads of #6 shot, using PolyWad SpreadR disks, for decoying ducks (about 30% patterns at 40 yards - about 100% at about 20 yards).

Used that supply of Bi-Sn ever since for decoyed and jump shooting ducks and occasional goose. Performance (penetration) was very similar to that of hard Pb-Sb alloy shot, especially Cu-plated shot (both giving little dragging of feathers into flesh). Size #3 pellets usually completely penetrated mallards at 30-35 yards. Very few pellet fragments found in birds. Size #5 buffered loads were used on canada geese with clean kills at under 40 yards, ditto for #3 shot.

Understand that alloying with Sn (tin) reduces brittleness. Also understand that this was either not done initially or that amount of Sn not optimal.

Totally satisfied with bismuth for my duck shooting. Also used some #5 Kent TM Upland loads (1250 fps). Also killed well. Maybe TM is better for pass shooting beyond 40 yards, I have no experience with this.

Niklas