doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Huh? H&R A&D, belgian proor marks??

then,how do you guys explain the Schaefer roll stamp on the top rib?

and as one of several other wr licensees, schaefer was required by license contract to mark each a&d patents action he used with a apun...

is #25's action a left over from h&r efforts?

or was it made by perhaps Francotte, who did make a&d actions for sale to others?

and maybe both the action and barrels were made in Belgium and imported by Schaefer?

or maybe the barrels only were made in Belgium and then joined and fit to the action by Schaefer, as replacement for the original 10 gauge barrels, maybe damaged at the same time the butt stock was damaged...

daryl, re your collection of Schaefer guns...

it would be helpful to know the serial number range of said guns...

oh, and here is an intriguing question...

did h&r source barrel tubes from Belgium?

many, many other gun makers sourced tubes from Belgium...

why not h&r?

Because Westley Richards was supervising production of the H&R guns. The H&R was a Westley that was built in the US.

Best,
Ted

Well, in the 1880s probably everyone, including the Brits and for sure the Germans, were getting their Pattern Welded Tubes or Tubesets from the talented mechanics in Liége.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

There was quite a bit of Damascus production in England in the 1880s, but, it was on its way out. The French were well into steel tubes in that era.
I’ve handled a few H&R doubles, and have never seen a European proof mark anywhere, on any of them.

Best,
Ted

Below is a QUOTE of a Post I made several years ago in another Thread about a couple H&R doubles:


I still regret not buying the H&R A Grade that I saw around 1992 at an Ohio Gun Collector Assn. Show in Cleveland. I had no idea what I was looking at, and the Blue Book of Gun Values I had with me didn't even list any H&R double shotguns. The gun I saw was very well finished and fitted with very extensive fine scroll engraving, lovely wood and checkering, and in very good condition. I seem to recall some engraving on the barrel breeches, and maybe a gold inlay or two. The name Harrington & Richardson was engraved on the top rib. The company name was not on the frame, so I actually wondered if someone had fitted H&R barrels to some fancy European shotgun. But as I said, at that time, I didn't even know H&R had ever built doubles. This was something like seeing the Ford Pinto name on a Bentley Rolls. To me, H&R was a maker of relatively inexpensive single shots and cheap revolvers. The barrels were a very fine Damascus, and back then, I was under the popular but erroneous impression that Damascus tubes were unsafe to shoot. I was also in the midst of building my house, so my gun budget was rather tight... especially for a Damascus wall-hanger. My non-buyers remorse lingers to this day.

I tend to agree with Kutter that the subject of this Thread was likely a 10 ga. H&R rebarreled to 12 ga using Belgian sourced tubes. It's interesting how they used the stepped and radiused transition from the larger breech to the smaller 12 ga. barrel diameter. I'd assume the work was done by W.R. Schaefer of Boston, hence the name on the rib. I suppose they could have been replacements for damaged barrels, or just a spare set in a smaller gauge made up for the owner to use his heavier 10 gauge duck gun with lighter 26" long 12 gauge barrels. Once upon a time, shooters could get replacement barrels made and fitted to a double for a fairly reasonable cost. I remember our late member Miller telling us that he had sent his F grade Lefever to either Italy or Belgium to have fluid steel barrels made, and the cost in the early 1960's was somewhere around $150.00. Those days are long gone, and even sleeving is cost prohibitive for lower grade guns. We'll likely never know what happened to the original barrels of this H&R.

I for one tire of this...

lets all read campbell's book...

at least three times...

and then take it up again, or not...

On the topic of pattern welded tubes, in the 1880s the door had all but shut on GB inland production. As I have said many times, the Liége mechanics were always trying to insert an >>out<< in the proof law for >>Trade Guns<<(Trade Components) because the Liége mechanics were shipping tubes to many gunmaking centres. Even though under French or Dutch rule, the only reason Belgium adopted a bona fide set of proof rules was because France & Great Britain had proof laws and reciprocity was the name of the game. How many Great Britain Guns have you seen in Belgium¿ Pretty much a one way sourcing conduit. All of this plus the fact that German was importing Belgian barrels in bulk is the reason for Germany's proof law. And the only reason that Belgium updated their proof rules along to meet the Germans was to meet the German bar so the mechanics in Liége could continue to flood the German Market w/ tubes. It was/is all about the Benjamins.

In the 1860s, Great Britain had a Trade Treaty w/ France and the St. Étienne mechanics were complaining that the French proof effort was too stout and they were seeing a 5% loss every year due to barrel bursts. There was not a Paris Proof Facility & Paris was the sourcing point for some 2k tubes a year made for the most part by Devisme(who was doing his on proving & was strongly against a Proof Facility in Paris), who made the Best of the Best & charged appropriately. At the same time, the mechanics in St. Étienne were solely using tubes rolled by Leopold Bernard.

So, it is possible that the Brits were sourcing the French too, but inland production just died up due to stiff competition and parallel proof laws. Therefore, you are not going to find hardly any proofmarks or touchmarks as they were worked off to mask the origin.....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

There are odd worked marks here & there. Plus others may be hidden by the lower rib? Too, if British sourced, does not GB have a Proof Facility? More than likely tubes were sourced in the rough from the mechanics in Liége & finished. FOLLOW the MONEY....




Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse