doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Huh? H&R A&D, belgian proor marks??

Probably rebarreled. Workmanship on the Belgian barrels is not up to normal H and R standards. The use numbers for the H and R Anson and Deeley guns were the serial numbers, while all other makers in England had separate use numbers.

as interesting as awl dat is...

imagine being a shotgun afficiado in Boston in 1882...

and holding this gun in your hands...

and realizing how revolutionary it really is...

does anyone else here have access to another one of these?

if so, tell us about it...

A set of Belgian made bbls (aftermarket) in 12ga and fitted to what was orig a 10ga H&R ,,,maybe,,just guessing.

They made these is 10 & 12ga.
That step down shoulder on the bbl from the frame is what I noticed.
Was that done to make a lighter weight set of bbls to fit the 10ga frame maybe.
I don't even know if they used 2 different frames,,just guessing as I said.

I have a 10ga example of one of these. It's apart right now for making a new mainspring for the RH side. That spring has a slightly shorter lower arm and looks like the shortness was from
breakage. It still worked OK, but a new spring is right for it.
A lower grade than this one with very little engraving. I'll pull the parts aside and see what marks are on it as far as proofs and such.

re: schaefer roll stamp on barrels...

research reveals, this gun could have been assembled by schaefer, from parts from various sources, after h&r's license expired in 1885...

I have one of these, I need to find it. Not sure if its a 12 or a 10. Super heavy and the barrels are very thick at the muzzle. Maybe I can look for it. Maybe Ed will buy it when I find it.

John
Arrieta

From what I remember mine does not have proof marks

John
Arrieta

I am not sure that Schaefer was making much in the 1880s, but rather peddlin' other's wares. But with the circular cocking dogs & the APUN in English instead of French, he very well could have cobbled together something in the shop. In 1879 he advertised as made to order only.


Some Schaefer info from recent threads:

>>Here's some text I composed on W.R. Schaefer. Let's see if I can add or amend anything:

"In 1853 William R. Schaefer hung out his gunmaking shingle in Boston at 11 Dock Square(House?). Interesting that this is also where Fred. G. Doell hailed from while William Richard Schaefer was at No. 61 Elm Street. In 1858 his is still at the same location, 11 Dock Square, as before per the Boston Directory. By 1868 he had partnered with J. Fredrick Werner to advertise as W.R. Schaefer & J. Fred. Werner Boston. It must have been somewhat short lived as in 1871 his address is No. 61 Elm Street, Boston where he advertises as being adept to re-boring scatterguns, which was a very new topic at the time. Even though a Schoverling, Daly & Gales catalogue? gives that the rights to the Ballard rifle were purchase by Schoverling & Daly in 1876, it appears that the acquistion was actually in 1873 and this may be what paired Schoverling & Daly with William R. Schaefer, who was listed as a Schoverling & Daly agent in 1877. William R. Schaefer was a superb shot and offered an Improved Ballard Rifle in 1876/1877 while advertising as "guns bored to shoot close and hard." W. R. Schaefer donated prize money for shooting events and in 1878/1879 donated a Daly Gun for an event. The 6 1/2 P.G. Ballard Rifle with Rigby pattern tube in 38-50 arrived on the scene about 1880 and I'm curious if W.R. Schaefer was involved. The organization of W. R. Schaefer & Son occurred in the 1881/1882 time period when J.R.F. Schaefer came aboard. In the next few years another son, Richard F. Schaefer, joined their ranks and the looks to have reflected it in advertising as W.R. Schaefer & Sons. Richard F. Schaefer, Dick as he was known, like his father was quite the shot and by age 17 could put on quite the exhibition of glass ball shooting at the Raymond Sportsman's Club in Melford, Massachusetts But this too was short lived and by 1890 there was a divorce with Richard F. Schaefer leaving William R. Schaefer & J.R.F. Schaefer at the helm. From here, Richard F. Schaefer's life doesn't appear to be a smooth one as he bounced around from city to city and on July 21st of 1909 was a clerk at a hotel in Norway, Me.(Maine?) he committed sucide abandoning a wife & son. I can't say if they were still a family unit or not but it would seem that William R. Schaefer would have taken in his daugher-in-law & grandson. Another interesting tid-bit is that just a few days later on July 23rd,1909, Fred. G. Doell also expired after a long bout with poor health. William R. Schaefer may have been a cock fighter or really liked chicken as in a 1900 advert, he promotes the wares of the Cyphers Incubator Company. Probably just the latter as he was peddling dunghills and/or showing dunghills. He may still have been active in 1917."<<




1879 Advert




1885 Advert

Elson & Schaefer - Breech-loader U.S. of A. Patent Nr. 86378 - Feb. 2nd, 1869

Sons went by J.F.R. Schaefer & Richard Schaefer(? - 1909)

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404463&page=3

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The H&R guns that haven’t been Mickey Moused, don’t. H & R built those under the supervision of Westley Richards, and paid a royalty on each gun. It was a Westley that was built here.

Belgium was not in the picture.

Best,
Ted

gee ted, wish I could speak as definitively, but not as negatively as you do...

do you have a crystal ball, that none of us have access too?...

meantime, research seems to support the idea that this gun was assembled by Schaefer & Son, under license from Westley Rchards...

which may explain its very low serial number, which is 25...