doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Huh? H&R A&D, belgian proor marks??

This is very odd. Check out the breech of the bbls.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ey-boxlock-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=103313997

OWD

I for one would like to see the proofs. But it really don't shock me @ all as Francotte was One Stop Shopping for the Anson & Deeley Body Action and probably collected the APUN. I do wonder if it wears an APUN #???? Charles Daly was more than likely involved in some capacity.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I wouldn't expect it to wear the full regiment of Belgian marks as the mechanics time & again fought against >>Trade Guns<< falling under the Proof Law. The mechanics did everything under their power to make an exception for >>Trade Guns<< to the point that although they could not be circulated within the Kingdom, they were permitted to be exported with proof from an export sourcing point.(Somewhere in the law is an exception for shipping >>Trade Guns<< to a Foreign Proof Facility like Birmingham - but I just have not been able to find the reference again.) Seemingly every maker had their own >>Proof Facility<< There they used an alley or garden and there were strict rules for proofing where they had to be covered w/ so much earth along with a smattering of boards, etc..... Maybe PPE like Wooden Safety Shoes¿¿¿¿ Then there were 2 Proof Houses under French Rule and one, which was a huge point of contention as each mechanic wanted it next door to them. So under French rule via the Prefect of the Department of Ourth, the 1st Official Proof Facility based on St Étienne rules was under the command of Jean Henri Laloux and barrels were proofed on Wednesdays & Saturdays from 1 pm to till nightfall and all private proof facilities were to be destroyed. But that just wasn't enough time for the volume of barrels so the barrel proving effort was on each Tuesday & Friday from 10 am until nightfall from October 1st till March 30th(I do wonder if this was a Daylight Savings thing¿¿) And from 1 pm till nightfall between April 1st & September 30th. But this still wasn't enough.


The Germans were doing the same thing & fought the 1891 rules and too wanted an exception for >>Trade Guns<< as they were peddling cheap muzzleloaders and pocket pistols to China, Egypt & Turkey that would not even make it thru the Proofhouse door much less the actually proof effort.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

images added to gi listing...

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-gauge.cfm?gun_id=103313997&cdn_bp=1

what is an apun number?

Thanks for the effort. Patent Use Number and that is exactly what the >>25<< is.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

This could be the smaller ELG or Eprouve(E) Liége(LG), which large or small, was a direct result of the St. Étienne Proof Rules. The ELG acceptance stamp was a direct result of the barrels being proved singularly and then joined. If after either proof effort, the barrel(s) could be sawn in 1/2 or stamped with a >>R<< and sent back to the maker for repair. The smaller encircled ELG stamp was purely for export only. Should the tubeset return to Liége, the double would return to the Proof Facility and receive the full regiment of marks and have a Large & Small ELG acceptance stamp. At the same exact time, Saint Remy had a very similar ESR - Eprouve Saint Remy stamp under the direction of Dieudonné Crul, but it was short lived for say a couple months.

So the Belgian stamps, along with the tubeset knitter initials of >>LE<< just note the platform left Ourth, Liége >>In the White<<. Maybe unless they considered it a >>Trade Gun<<????

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Too, it appears the APUN # 25 was also used as an assembly # or serial number as the crossbar in the frame wears the same #.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

One could opine that just the tubeset was made in Liége, but there is little, if any, work on the barrel flats as if they were made, married to the frame and then the acceptance stamp of ELG over Star enclosed by an oval was applied.

As a sidenote, under the rein of the 1st Proof Master, Jean Henri Laloux, someone mishandled the propellant, sort of akin to the very recent issue @ facility near Nashville, and the proof house was leveled along with several adjacent houses and bore 4 Souls to Heaven and injured many. So the Proof Facility was moved to Jean Henri Laloux's Garden and the Proof Facility was only allowed to keep 5 kilos of powder and the rest was to be properly stored in a proper facility.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The mark is confusing, and as Raimey observed the ELG in the oval (without the crown used after 1893) was applied at the time of 3rd Definitive Proof for the finished barrels, and there should be more marks; the Perron and both the EL script and at least 2 inspector's marks, and the bore in mm; just forward of the flats.
J.B. Patton posted images of 2 H&Rs here, neither with the ELG. Daryl posted an image from a catalog.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=382425&page=1

Hause:

This tubeset is more than likely going to fall under the 1853 rules & prior to the 1888, and more than likely fall under an exception for >>Trade Guns<< and circumvented the full regiment of proofs for an in country offering. The 1888 rules pretty much nipped the >>Trade Gun<< status in the bud, although there could have been an exception or two as the Liége mechanics were always, always trying to sneak in a >>Trade Gun<< exception.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse