doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com J. Haugh Ballard Rook Rifle

...that's what I'm calling it anyway. New member joining to show and ask about this custom rifle I will be receiving soon. Made by J.T. Haugh, on a Ballard action. In .25-20 Single Shot, I can't imagine using it for anything but small game, but I love the way it looks in the seller photos.


Of course the first thing I will determine is is the Ballard action a cast or forged type. I hope forged. I already reload for .25-20 SS.
Next is are the sling mount holes made for a standard American sized swivel.
And importantly, what size scope rings will work on it? I want some elegant, lever type quick detachables. I have an old pre-centering Weaver K4 to go on it. What rings do you think would be best? Are the dovetails on custom rifles standarized enough to buy rings now and hope they'll fit? I'm looking at flat-bottom Kimber types...but should probably wait and measure the quarter rib.

Happy to be here.

Welcome to the forum, AZshot.

Lovely rifle.

In Victorian times (and quite a bit later) it would have been regarded as suitable for Roe deer, Blackbuck, Duiker and the like.

If the sling mount holes are non standard you could look for a silent sling with leather thong ends (or just make up a couple of loops with leather laces to fasten your sling strap to).

Parker-Hale used to make hooks with swivels attached but they tend to be noisy and could come unhooked at the wrong moment.

Thanks, I should have mentioned I'm in the USA. So our medium game are Coues Deer, Javelina, and Coyote! I'm in the west, in the state of Arizona.

That’s a really nice rifle. Congratulations on acquiring it. Has very elegant lines. Regarding the question about scope rings, there’s a member of the forum, his forum name is Der Ami (Mike), who seems to know a lot about fitting scope rings. Perhaps he will come along and provide some input. If not, you might try private messaging him. Regarding the sling attachment, when you get it in hand, it will be easy to tell if those standard swivel bases meant for standard American slings for example Uncle Mike’s quick detach (QD) swivels, or they are the larger eyes meant for a leather thong or steel hook like Parabola mentioned. The QD swivels are available in every gun shop in Walmart around the country, and you can easily see if one will fit appropriately. If a QD swivel is incredibly loose, then the holes were meant for a leather thong or steel hook. Just from the picture, I expect they are designed for standard QD swivels. Congratulations again, and let us know how it shoots!

Thanks, will do.

As a huge Ballard fan for the last 45 years I'm tickled to see another fine old Ballard rifle. Even if it turns out to be one of the cast actions the .25-20SS is still a great cartridge, just needs mild loads if it is cast. I can't give you any help with what rings fit until you have it, and can post what type of rail it has, and how scope rings might attach?
It really does have that "rook rifle" look to the build, and certainly whoever put it together had that in mind. A nice old Lyman or Fecker scope in the small game style would look appropriate for a rook style build. I have a Lyman 438 on my Ballard 3f Fine Gallery in .22LR.

Thanks, I always wanted a Ballard, for almost as long. Just never got one. Almost bought an original with an ivory ball in the ring 35 years ago, but we were newlyweds and too poor. I have a Shiloh I got back then, waiting 5 years for it to be built on order. This one popped up cheaply so I grabbed it, I already have a Low Wall Winchester in the caliber. The reason I'm not going for a long external mount scope is because I have 4 of those on other rifles. This one I want lighter and handier. If it happens to be super accurate, I may get a bigger power scope on it later. But for now, just a 4X plinking scope because I plan on carrying this out in the field, it's not going to be a bench only gun (I have several). I'll report when I get it.

You have a treasure as there were few better gunmakers than Jack Haugh. Member BDSteele should be along soon to comment as he was good friends with Jack. Congratulations!

Great little rifle. The Len Brownell rings were popular with custom builders during the time frame that I would guess that rifle was built. I have several sets that I will probably never get around to using. If it turns out to be made for those let me know and I may be able to help out.

Great find,
John

AZshot,
It is difficult to tell from the photo, but it seems that the quarter rib has dovetails or some other provisions for mounting a scope (see the light spots at the front and rear of the rib). If I am correct, I suggest you ask the rifle's builder what type was intended. If I am mistaken, I suggest you make arrangements to have to have your classic K4 mounted in Warne QD rings. If properly mounted, it is pretty hard to be dissatisfied with these rings. As far as the sling swivels are concerned, from the photo it seems American QD swivels should fit, but if not, I have had no trouble opening the bases up to fit. BTW, I don't know that much about fitting scope rings, I'm just old and have seen a few.
Mike

Thanks John, I will take you up with that when it arrives!
Thanks Der Ami, but the builder passed away in 2018. I will measure the rib dovetails when I get the gun. Looking forward to it a lot.

AZshot,
If the rings John offered fit, or can be made to fit they are excellent rings also.
Mike

I don't think Jack Haugh is around to ask any questions on this neat Ballard. If he is still with us he's about 96 years old I think?

J.T. Haugh passed in 2018.

Jack was an awesome gunmaker! His son Cole and grandson Jacob are still running the gun shop and may have information or provide any help you may need or want 8126543209. Great guys I visit about every 3 months to drop off and pic up projects.

I received the rifle and am extremely pleased with it. It's smaller and lighter than I expected, but I like that for a quarter bore. It's about 6 lbs when I heft it, my arms are calibrated pretty accurately. It has a 23 1/3" barrel. The bore is mirror bright. The lever takes a good amount of pressure to close fully against the stock, and the set trigger is just a few ounces. I'm rethinking my scope choice to be a smaller one, without an objective bell.

I would say that is one sexy rifle! I’ve noticed I tend towards smaller scopes myself as I get older. Enjoy and let us know how it shoots!

AZshot,
There is a youtuber that shoots a 25-20 SS among several other very interesting old cartridges. His site is: You Tube Steve B's Workshop. You might pick up some hints and loads. Have fun with that great rifle.
Mike

Thanks. I've been reloading for .25-20 SS and several obsolete related calibers for years. I have a Low Wall in the same round. The brass is the most difficult thing for these, but I have pleanty.

Have you dropped the breech block yet to check and see if it's a cast or forged action? If it's cast the area below the barrel's chamber will be hollow. If forged that area will be solid. If cast I'd be very careful with loads, even in .25-20SS in a cast action.
By the way, your breech block is from a cast action as the firing pin screw is below the firing pin center line. If it was from a forged action the screw is above firing pin center line, like my forged Pacific is:

I have not checked yet. I am not concerned with shooting my reloads in .25-20 SS in my Low Wall, nor this Ballard.

Fwiw, a friend broke a cast Ballard in half using mild .25-20 SS loads for schuetzen. I ended up buying the rifle from him after he rebuilt it with a new, modern receiver.

The low wall would not concern me at all.

I understand. But also this gun is tight, no cracks and looks forged to me. I'll check the inside later. Most of the people in the ASSRA say low pressure loads are fine, since I was a member back in the 1990s...what 35 years ago. But I saw that one that Garbe reported on. What were the loads? I may shoot black powder, but those generate more pressure. I know about the "spike".

If I knew the loads, I have forgotten them. It was 30ish yrs ago that I bought the gun. The gun, as I bought it was a .22, and it still is, living now in Kansas.

That low wall is the ideal action for a .25-20 SS, which is one great cartridge. I had one in a highwall (not so great a choice).

That is a pretty rifle. Good luck with it.

Full disclosure: I removed the block, it's hollow under the barrel shank, so it's cast steel. I will likely just shoot black powder through this one. But that means all my jacketed 75 grain bullets, as well as several boxes of factory Jamison rounds, can't be used. I do have a mould for a 85 grain bullet.
What makes me lean to BP is this gun (and all Ballards) was made before the Smokeless era. In Colt Single Action revolvers (which I also collect) everyone makes a big deal about not shooting smokeless until the guns were verified/proof for it, around 1905. So I shoot BP in several of my older ones. Then there are the damascus barrel shotguns - everyone says shoot BP. I'm well versed in reloading BP, and have pleanty.

What makes me lean to Smokeless or this gun is many experts shoot light smokeless loads in these Ballards, even cast ones. The gunsmith was pretty famous, lifetime achievement award through the Contemporary Long Rifle Association, made the Bicentennial long rifles from scratch, made many Africa guns, etc. He surely knows about a cast action for the .25-20 SS round, yet used one. Also, I wonder what the pressure (not velocity) of a .22 LR really is? Or any of the old rounds Ballard used in these with black powder? Finally, I've seen pressure curves before that show BP is a HIGHER pressure, but a more gentle spike. I'm on the fence.

The action that you're referring to that blew up might likely have blown up even if it was forged. The owner used 5744 and put a wad down against the powder to hold the powder back against the primer. At the least that will cause a bulged chamber, and if the load was a little heavier, or accidental over charged, then that's the result. Don't blame the gun for poor loading practices.

Smokeless powder is almost all I've used in over 3 dozen Ballard rifles I own. The only BP loads I shoot are when matches require me to shoot BP to compete. My loads are all under 20,000 psi and safe for old actions of any kind. I don't push my Ballard or other single shot loads, and I stick with cast bullets for all my shooting, whether the barrels are original, or rebarreled rifles. Just my personal choice.

I went with some old Kimber Big Game Rifle rings, and a K3 Weaver. Still large, but allowed me to move the scope back for the best eye position. These ballards have a very long action. Thanks to all those who were helping me with ring options. I'm very pleased with this rifle.

Perfect!

Good takeaways from this thread: Before firing, inspect the action internally for hollow cast portions and cracks. Many Ballards can use low-pressure smokeless (.25-20 light loads under ~20,000 psi), but stay away from compressed/wad-against-powder systems. Black powder produces softer pressure curves and is a safe substitute for the original pre-smokeless guns. When in doubt, have the weapon inspected or proofed by a qualified gunsmith before using contemporary ammunition.

I got the scope sighted in at 50 yds. That took a bunch of rounds, my boresighting was way off. I think it has good potential. Used FFF black powder, 86gr Ideal mold, SPG lube. By the way, I turned the target for the photo 90 deg to left. It was hitting at the bottom with a 6 O'clock hold.

Do not rule out coarser powder. When I shot this caliber, no matter what I did, 1.5 was better than 3f every day. Did not seem reasonable, but that's the way it went.

I'll try some 2F next. I might have some 1.5F, not sure. It was a pleasant firing rifle, nice set on the trigger (it was "breath on it to fire" light when I got it), and more accurate than my Low Wall Winchester in the same caliber, I believe. Will cast some more bullets and reload!


Though I will work up a load from the bench, this is really an offhand rifle (like most rifles). So I shot a couple rounds offhand at those same 5" bullseyes, from 50 yards. Hit in the black, which is always satisfying. I know, ...only 50 yards, and people shoot off hand schuetzen at 200 yards. I have too, but it's been a long time. I was pleased.