doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Proofmarks and country manufactured.w/pics

Do proof marks indicate country of manufacture?

Can shotguns be made in one country and be exported without proof marks and then be proofed in the country where sold? Belgium-France

I've seen shotguns made in Belgium sold in Germany that have two sets of proofmarks.

Yes, proof marks are specific by country.
Typically the scenario would be a Belgian gun to a finisher or dealer in France or Germany.
I don't know when France required re-proof - 1897 or 1923 (Ted will know)
I don't know when Germany required re-proof - ? 1893 (Raimey will know)
The Belgian gun would carry full proof marks including the 3rd Definitive Proof mark.

I don't know the rules when U.S. gunmakers imported un-finished actions from Belgium. The barrels would have to carry Provisional Proof which was an intertwined script EL

An example with post-1923 French marks and post-1924 Belgian - the omega with the chamber length and the crowned ELG are the Definitive Marks. The fused AC is the Belgian inspector's mark.
There would be more marks on the barrels just forward of the flats.



That all changed with CIP member nations accepting the proof of other CIP members.

Drew,
What most don’t grasp from this point in time was that until 1960, proof was NOT OBLIGATORY in France. However, it might as well have been. I seriously doubt guns that were unproofed were actually offered for sale in France, but, I’ve been surprised before.

https://www.banc-epreuve.fr/en/small-arm-proof/

Keep in mind, the proof laws were standardized and made universal in 1964. The proof level for guns with 3” chambers was standardized as identical to French proof for 2 1/2” and 2 3/4” guns, which makes things simpler, I guess. But basic proof in France was very high pressure.

Reproof, up until 1964, was voluntary. It could scarcely be “required” when proof was not technically required, but, it did exist and was used on civilian arms. The brief conversation I had with the proof master in St. Etienne led me to believe that reproof was rare, and if a gun was up to be reproofed, it typically failed the view segment. A bulge, honing of bores beyond about .005, or defects on construction would lead to fail of view. A gun that failed view was not reproofed. Keep in mind, sleeved, non monobloc guns were an automatic fail at view in France when subject to reproof. The basic level of proof was quite high in France, the highest in Europe, by law, and marginal or worn guns simply would not pass reproof. After reproof the gun could once again fail view if the bore measurements changed because of proof.

A long time ago, I decided that if a gun had passed French basic proof, and remained within a few thousandths of the initial measurement of the bore that was stamped on the flats at proof, I was done worrying about what loads I fed said gun with regards to pressure. Using light loads for the sake of the stock, or, my shoulder might feature, but, the barrels would be up to basic hunting loads going forward.

So it goes.

Best,
Ted

Recent example from Daryl
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=663004

BTW Turkey is not a CIP member, so all the Turkish guns imported to Great Britain are reproved by the British Proof House.

Oskar,

The short answer to your question is probably but not necessarily.

A good example is my SKB over and under made in Japan but bearing British Proof marks.

That at is because that when it was imported Japanese proof (I think not carried out at an official proof house but at the factory) was not recognised by C.I.P. or the British proof authorities.

The same applies to American made guns imported into this country, unless in transit they have been Proofed at a C.I.P. recognised Proof House.

Thank you for the info. Here's a little background on the questions,

I have a "Man-nook", not big enough to call a cave but a small area of my house that my wife lets me decorate to my taste, outdoor prints on the wall, decoy collection, my Alladin kerosene lamps from my living in a tent life, outdoor knick-knacks that interest me that she doesn't find offensive(no Farrah Fawcet posters). Rummaging through the gun safe I found I have a few hammer sxs's from a couple of countries, cool. I decided to put up a display of hammers sxs's from common gun making countries. I have Swedish, German, Belgium, Italian, Spanish and English hammer sxs's on the wall. I need a French hammer sxs, well they are a little more difficult to find in my price range, retired truck driver cheap. My Belgium sxs is a converted pinfire with Belgium proof marks, the locks are marked Victor Collet. So French pinfire sxs's seem to be more common than a centerfire hammer shotgun.

I bought a pretty nice representative French pin fire, Lefauchaux underlever, still has a lot of case color left, pretty decent shape for a 170 years old. I will get it next Tuesday. It is heavily/deeply stamped with French proofs, not like my Darne or Costo Super but St. Etienne , a crown over crossed palm leafs and three crosses around the palm leafs, a 17.0 and a z4. Proofmarks are only on the barrel nothing on the action flats other than the z4. I'm thinking this is French. Then the kicker, on the rib in gold is DAMAS BERNARD, block letters just like I typed. From what I've read Damas Bernard is Bernard Damascus steel from Belgium.

So is the shotgun French or imported and proofed in France. I can't find any reference to French proofmarks for mid 1800's France.

Thank you for looking.

These are the marks that were used on foreign made arms and barrels at the proof house in St. Etienne.




The block letter stamp came into use after 1923. The other one, with just the AE, dates to 1879, or so.

I’m not positive when use of either version ended.

Best,
Ted

Leopold Bernard was French, but there were several Belgian 'Bernard' tube and barrel makers, and Bernard patterns were also made in Ferlach
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit?tab=t.0

Drew, Thank you for this information, I am always amazed at the information that is here, again Thank you. Now I feel comfortable labeling it as a French pinfire hammer shotgun. I will post some pics when it arrives.

Only one left, the American sxs, I cant believe I let go a LC Smith and a Stevens 235 just a few years ago, both had been given to me in exchange for carpentry and masonry work. The Stevens went to the guy that did the tile work on my fireplace.

French proof marks post-1897