doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LC Smith Long Range

I have a LC Smith Ideal Long Range with ejectors manufactured in 1925. Supposedly only 165 were made in this configuration and grade. Have two questions regarding the gun. Being that it has 3" chambers and made for more stout loads could I use 3" lead shells from the 1970's-80's or would that still have too much pressure for this old gun? Second wondering if someone can ballpark a price range? The gun is in original condition other than inside barrels may have been touched up. Bores are .732 and .734. Has perhaps 50% case colors, wood finish and checkering in good shape, barrels 30" are clean with no pits. Choked extra full and extra full. Patterned 91% and 94% with 2.5" shells using 3 drams BP and 1oz lead. Seems to have been moderately used. Pics don't do justice to the case colors.

You say your gun was made in 1925, so it is now 100 years old. If you have the chance, take a look at the head inletting of several old L.C. Smith shotguns. There isn't much wood bearing against the frame to take a lot of battering from excessive recoil. Many of these stocks will already have cracks from recoil, stock design, and the brittle nature of the old wood.

If your 3" chambered barrels are sound and unpitted, they would probably survive firing with modern 3" Magnum loads, but no guarantees. I've mentioned the brother of a friend who frequently fired 3" Magnum loads in his Dad's 20 ga. L.C. Smith Field Featherweight. He seemed to get away with it, but removing the stock could tell a different story. I'd be a lot more concerned about the wood. Chamber pressure doesn't crack wood, but the recoil of modern Magnum loads certainly can. You won't know for sure until the damage is done.

As for current value, your best bet would be to follow ACTUAL SALES of the same gun in similar condition on GunBroker, etc. I'd guess around $800.00 to $1000.00, but I haven't really followed L.C. Smith prices for awhile. I can confidently say it will be worth less with a damaged stock. I have a bunch of old doubles, but I also have some modern guns that I can use to burn modern high velocity ammo. You can buy a suitable gun for less than the cost of repairing or restocking your 100 year old Ideal Grade.

Tamid: Its a 3-inch Smith, isn't that what the early, lead, 3-inch shells were made for? I know the stock-cracking issue concerns people but I'd have to guess that the folks at Fulton left a little more wood in 'em accordingly? Perhaps Dr. Drew will be along shortly to educate us on the subject? You could always ask 'em over on the LCSmith webpage about it as well.

Previous thread & not much to add
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=641377

The McCracken Research Library at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West has a Hunter Arms Co. Pressure Curve dated June 10, 1929. It is not labeled as such but was probably generated by the Burnside Laboratory of the E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co.
12g 3” ‘Record’ 1 3/8 oz. shot presumed 1275 – 1295 fps = 13,250 psi + 10-14% (!) for piezo numbers
12g 2 3/4” ‘Field’ 1 1/4 oz. shot presumed 1330 fps = 10,750 psi + 10-14%

The issue with LRWF (and 'Long Cracked' Smiths) is recoil and not pressure. The LRWF used the standard Regular frame, but it is likely that the wood at the head of the stock was slightly thicker.
IMHO the gun would have significantly more value if the head of the stock was examined and either glas bedded or cyanoacrylate impregnated.
If 'touched up' means honed then wall thickness measurements would be wise but .732" would be a typical bore.
A LCSCA Research Letter does seem to help in sales
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=43784&module_id=245742

Here's a non-ejector Specialty LRWF
https://www.guns.com/used-guns/p/l-c-smith-specialty-grade-long-range?i=509664

Over-priced non-LRWF but 32" barrels Ideal
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...deal-grade-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=103154694

When your Smith was made, the 12-gauge 3-inch progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity load, Western Super-X or Peters High-Velocity, carried a payload of 1 3/8-ounce of shot.



The 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum load with a 1 5/8-ounce payload was introduced by Winchester and Western in 1935 along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck made for 12-gauge 3-inch shells. The 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum load with 1 7/8-ounce of shot was introduced in the late 1950s. In later years I've seen 12-gauge 3-inch shells with as much a 2 1/4-ounce of lead shot.



Pressures aren't the issue, they are all within SAAMI specs. The issue is the damage the recoil forces of these heavy high velocity loads can do to your already too fragile, 100-year-old, L.C. Smith wood.

I have a LC Smith also with factory 3" chambers, Tamid. But, mine is not a LRWF Special, rather I believe it is a purpose built pigeon gun. It is a Grade 3 and has 32" barrels and very tight chokes. It DOES have a safety, which many consider an anathema to a live pigeon gun but the provenance shows that the owner was a member of the Philadelphia Gun Club ( the PGC shot a lot of pigeons in that era) when he ordered the gun and I will always believe the 3" chambers in this gun were intended for loads of the era that weren't necessarily wildfowl loads but pigeon loads with extra wadding to improve patterns.That is what the long shells were designed for up until the Super X Magnum load came out, when the extra length was used for heavy payloads of "Luballoy" coated shot.

I have used a few 1 1/4 BOSS bismuth loads in mine . . . . the ones they used to sell that were intentionally lower pressure for vintage guns. I bought a two-hundred round bulk case of them and now am very glad i did because i don't think they offer them anymore. I even saw where they have discontinued loading any bismuth at all due to the problems acquiring it from overseas.

Personally, even though my Smith was designed for the "pigeon loads" of the day I don't use anything in it more than 1 1/8 oz. anymore, because of the potential of the heavier recoil to damage the wood.

Very nice looking gun you've got there. Case colors are awesome.

A few pics of my 3E.

A few more:







No cracks in the wood . . . . . how can that be?!!!

In the thirty or so years before the introduction of the 12-gauge, 3-inch, progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity, 1 3/8-ounce loads, the heaviest 12-gauge loads offered by our North American ammo companies were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4-ounce of shot. These loads were offered in 2 3/4-inch and longer shells. The perceived advantage of the longer shells was more/better wadding.









Customers didn't always order the heaviest possible loads in their long shells --

Wow -- Researcher!

Great stuff, as always.

Good to see you posting ...

OWD

Researcher, very good info on the shells. Hadn''t thought about the perspective of using lighter loads a 3 inch shell to obtain better performance. Wonder if that's why my 1oz with 3 drams BP pattern so well in the extra tight chokes....because the gun was made that way? I don't have any intention of using heavy 3" loads and I'm aware of the potential to split the stock. If I was going to use the gun at all I would glass in the stock.