doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Fred K Williams Proof Mark Identification

Hello, I could use some help interpreting the proof marks and general date range of manufacture on this Fred K Williams 12 gauge. It's my understanding that Fred Williams stopped producing guns in 1950, not sure where the 120025 serial puts this one. It looks like it was sleeved in the 80s as well. Top engraving is the "Fred K Williams London Birmingham" mark. Appreciate any help with identification.

Great pictures
Welcome on your first posting

https://www.shotguns.se/html/uk.html

Sleeved 1988 OC

Just by way of clarification, the name of this outstanding English gunmaker is Frederick Williams, which is abbreviated Fredk Williams. The name is not Fred K. Williams.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

The marks on the flats date to 54' - 89' so are from proving after the sleeving in 88'.
The 13 R (bore .710 - .718) and L 13/1 (.719 - .728) are from the original proving. It is possible that the other marks were filed off from the flats, or were lost when the tubes were cut; so we can't date the original proof.
The sleeved bore is .728"
3 tons is for a max. service pressure of about 9000 psi

Great Britain adopted the 1969 CIP standards March 1, 1980 but continued using Lead Crushers to measure pressure until 1989.

i will add a few comments to doc drew's - both sets of proofs were from the birmingham proofhouse, and could be as old as 1887 (when the 13/1 type bore measurements began). skeettx's facebook link shows a fred williams gun that has a much later extensive proofs, all shown on the tubes - so the idea that sleeving removed most proofs has obvious merit. but, there are several remnants of proofs remaining on the barrel flats...so i would bet that the flats were tidied up prior to reproofing. i have an arthur turner/sheffield gun that was reproofed in b'ham under the 1954-89 rules, and it was also struck clean before the reproof - so, such things do exist.

the is the handiest reference for dating british guns, courtesy of diggery haddock - https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/514-2

from this you can see that the 13/1 & 13 markings could have been done as later as 1953....and the absence of other indicators does not give useful clues to choose between 4 different eras of rules.

but, there is another clue still there - on the water table - ENGLISH MADE. several references given, highlight the fact that williams had a substantial export business, and from memory there was an american law that inported guns required a stamping of their country of origin sometime in the ww1 era, and after 1924 (?) that requirement was changed to "MADE IN GERMANY" or "ENGLISH MADE".

this clue, plus the fairly high serial number would lead me to think late 20's, or perhaps even later.

best regards,

tom

Good observation.
It was not until 1891 that the U.S. required the country of origin to be clearly marked on an imported gun.
“Made In ______” appears mostly after the 1930 Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act

The sleeving appears to have been very neatly done, but from the excellent photographs the very tiny marks across the line of the barrels indicate that, as is usual, the original barrels were cut off about 1/4 inch in front of the barrel flats.

If that is so the pre-1954 13 and 13/1 marking cannot be remnants of the proof marks originally applied to this gun.

It seems to me that there are 2 possibilities:-

1. When it was sleeved in 1988 the sleever used tubes that had been provisionally proofed as tubes before 1954 but never fitted to a complete gun, or
2. That he dismantled a pair of orphaned barrels, proofed before 1954, turning the breech ends down to use as sleeving tubes.

I THINK I GOT THIS WRONG - please see my later post

Thanks everyone, great info. If I'm understanding this correctly, the "English Made" mark likely puts this after 1930 and before 1950 if that's when production ceased.

Does the mark mean it was intended for export? It's fair to assume it stayed in England if it was reproofed there in 1988. I haven't seen that mark on other Fredk Williams guns (though I haven't seen many).

A mfg date in the 1930s makes sense, it appears to be very similar to this model 860 in the 1937 catalog.

Thanks Parabola.
The original image is high resolution and I tried to enhance it a bit



That would be quite the sleeve joint!