doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com guns for ZZ birds

I have only shot a practice round once, at the Southern SXS. I was wondering what are popular guns for ZZ birds. It seems like a doubles trap gun would be a good choice but wondered what most people use.

A nice flat shooting over and under with a low rib. Sorta like one would use for Bunder. MX8?

tight lines Jim Sears

I have watched ZZ birds shot at Strathcona Range near Edmonton, Alberta. This was in 1982 and the USA Army Marksmanship International Trap and Skeet Team were there.
After practice one day, the organisers suggested the trap team challenge the skeet team at ZZ. Seems you need an International trap gun for that game, I think one would be ideal.
Or a box bird gun, near enough the same thing, is it not. or are box bird guns set up to shoot flatter?
Anyhow a skeet gun does not work too well, you need the tighter chokes. And ZZ is a lot of fun, not too many places to shoot the game, the centre of the target must be shot out of the whole target, which is a 6 blade fan,I think), revolved on a spindle of the thrower, the spindle is parallel to the ground, and when the fan is spinning at the right speed, a shaft pushes it off the spindle, and that fan flies all over. Seem to remember 4 machines in a row, perhaps someone can correct me.
Mike

I shot ZZ's at Sandanona a couple years ago and the best shooter there used a tightly choked, 32", high rib, monte carlo-ed trap O/U. The shooter was Charlie Schneible of British Sporting, and I know it was the shooter not the gun.

But I think the choice was interesting; he could've used any type of gun he wanted (he's a shotgun shop owner and excellent shooter) and he chose a serious trap gun.

Have shot them several times with our box bird group. A heavy choked pigeon gun capable of comfortably launching 1 1/4 ounce 7 1/2 pigeon loads is the way to go. They take a lot of "killing" to drop them in the ring, and the earlier you can shoot the darned things the better. Chokes on a trap gun would work fine, but a bit livelier stock design is, in my limited experience, better. The game really is designed to try to replicate an unpredictable, exceedingly tough bird launching from a box. Lively, tight, and a quick follow-up remain the formula as it was a hundred years ago.

Please explain "livelier stock design"? Do you mean a lower stock?

I imagine that a gun suitable for ZZs would be fairly closely modelled on the principles of the old live pigeon guns - built solidly and heavily for 1 1/4 loads, flat file cut ribs, tight chokes, long barrels, semi-pistol grips and high combs to get high patterns for rising birds (livelier stocking), perfectly fitted for swift, sure mount etc. ZZs are, after all, supposed to simulate live pigeons...
RG

A high stocked [shooting] gun can get you into a lot of trouble [as in lost!, accentuated by a loud buzzer so all know you missed] on Helice. Assumptions that the birds will be rising is wishful thinking. Many are, but there are 'drivers', straight aways [no bird really is, but they sometimes have that appearance] and ground huggers that come out behind the trap and are not visible at all until they clear the fence or just before. The targets have two blades [orange] and a white 'witness' cap snapped in the center. The blades are constructed of a polystyrene type plastic and the witness is a much heaver and more durable plastic of a dif composition. The witness may be and often is reused. Targets are made in more than one country. Italian ones seem to separate better, those made in Mexico are more challenging [tougher], at least that has been the opinion of many folks that I have shot with. I would agree.

You do not need pigeon loads. The Remington 'Heavy Dove' loads [3&1/4DE 1.125oz. shot] in #7.5 will get the job done about as well as anything. If you think you need choke, then by all means. I use tight chokes personally. I have also run a number of targets with a no choke[cyl] damascus bbl'd English hammer gun using the gold hulled Remington handicap trap loads. Perhaps it was the 'borrowed gun' syndrome, but it sure made a lasting impression on me, 12/15 w/it that afternoon just screwing around. I personally checked the bores w/my gauge afterwards .. no choke. Didn't get to pattern it, but suspect the center was 'hot'. Most importantly, I shot it well.

Read Cyril Adams book, 'Lock, Stock & Bbl' for some further insight on techiques. Cyril shoots a 34" Parker, off the shoulder, never premounted. Also read Michael Raye Forehand's book, 'Competition Shotgun Shooting' for helice and other game specific information.

For me, I do best w/a flat shooting, lively gun. That does mean a bit more drop. The rythum is unique to helice and is not the same as other games, even though it was intended to be a 'Zinc Zuritto'(sp?), the native rock dove of Gibralter.

Box bird & trap guns are the predominant norm, however there are quite a few Beretta semi-autos and a smattering of 1100's and a good representation of old classic SxS's that do as well as any. We shoot them regularly, have two regulation rings that stay set up and aside from some competition matches, monthly Helice fun shoots, usually held on a Sat.

The 'trick' to getting the witness to separate is to break the outer ring of the prop portion of the target. Do that and the centrifugal force will break the rest of it and loose the witness pretty much 100% of the time.

edit: by 'outer ring' I am refering to the ring that the witness snaps into, between the propeller blades.

You will, of course, have to work out for yourself exactly what gun to use. Here is what I'd consider the handling fingerprint envelope of most likely candidates. On the light side, average light pigeon gun:weight = 7# 6 oz, balance to (front) trigger = 4 5/8", unmounted swing effort = 1.67, mounted swing effort = 7.46, barrel length = 29", and half weight radius = 10.35. Average pigeon gun: weight = 7 11 oz, balance to (front) trigger = 4 3/4", unmounted swing effort = 1.82, mounted swing = 7.98, barrel length = 29 3/4,half weight radius = 10.47. Average target/fowler: weight = 8# 6 oz, balance to (front) trigger = 5 1/4", unmounted swing = 2.34, mounted swing = 9.28, barrel length = 31", half weight radius = 11.38.

I expect that the reference to "livlier" will work out to be swing effort. The above will give you some numbers to compare to.

Keith, we need your help on this.

If an ATA trap gun is set up by rib configuration and stock dimension to throw the shot charge center 18 inches high to compensate for the rising bird, a dropping ZZ or International Trap bird would have to be lead on the low side by about three feet in addition to lateral lead. This is not a comfortable situation for consistent shooting. I would prefer a gun that throws its pattern dead center to point of aim for ZZ, International Trap, or flyers. However, I believe shooters with much more experience than I sometimes prefer high shooting guns for flyers. I don't know what the majority of experienced shooters prefer. For me, "livelier stock dimensions" means a shorter stock than used in ATA competition and comb drop that allows the eye to line up close to the rib rather than high above it.