doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com can you decipher these German Proofmarks ?

they are from the suhl proof house as adopted in april 1912: the same rules went into effect sept 1, 1911 at the zella-mehlis house - but their use of the word "nitro" can be distinguished by the fact it is rendered in a script font. the lack of a crown over the nitro mark (such as present over the w and s proofs) indicates only passing the basic test - not the second @ 12,800psi.

the eagle stamp beside the w (and on both tubes) is the preliminary black power test, and directly below it, can be seen the faint crown that accompanies the u (directly below) - and in combination, they indicate the second or final black power proof.

the crown over s indicates a smooth bore barrel, and the crown over w indicates the presence of choke of .008 or greater constriction in that tube. the circled 16 is of course the chambering, in this case a normal 2 1/2"....and the 16/1 indicates an oversize bore - from memory a ibd of over .669.

the 1/24 is january 1924; the 71 is likely an assembly number. the 2016 under the right tube could be the serial number...repeated on water table? and the k and r over w stamps are likely mechanics marks involved in the barrels' construction.

best regards,

tom

Tom, thanks so much. The gun is a Fred Adolph gun, but not in his catalog. I don’t know who the German maker might be. Some wonderful guns came out of Germany through Adolph’s hands . This is the first one I have seen as late as 1924 when his business was failing.

Close Tom but Suhl used a ledger # for the 1st 6 months or there was a Renovation @ the Suhl Proof Facility(there was in 1920/1921) and Suhl sent their wares to the Z-M Proof Facility for proof. One always sees a ledger # on the Suhl wares from Sept. 1923 till about 6 months forward. I think there was a new gun law in 1922/1923 when Foreign Minister Walther Rathenau was knocked off in 1922. There was a lot that went on from 1920(1918) to 1924 and much of the facts are veiled by the ravages of time.

With the RW, Römerwerke easily could have all the heavy lifting performed @ the Römerwerke/Röhmerwerk Facility. Adolf added very, very little effort to his wares. I will have to do some diggin' on that R/W.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Another observation is that from 1912 the Block >>Nitro<< stamp migrates from the sides of the tubes to the bottom of the Flats by the end of WWI.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

If you take an artistic license & omit the S for Suhl it looks dangerously close???? But that wasn't exactly for what I was looking.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thieme & Schlegelmilch, F.W. Keßler, Bernard Keßler, Heinz Keßler, Wolfie Keßler, Greifelt(Teilhaber-Partner 1913), Paul Stadelmann(E. Schmid & Habermann) along with others were principals. Sort of a >>Who's Who<< of Suhl Gunmaking. But Römerwerke Waffenfabrik migrated to Röhmer-Werke on May 25th, 1923 with Jacob Röhmer @ the helm. Post WWI(1919) E. Schmidtt & Habermann sourced their wares and it just may have been Römerwerke Waffenfabrik / Röhmer-Werke doing all the work in addition to the heavy lifting. Sounds like it would be right up Adolf's Alley.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Digging a bit deeper, a Suhl mechanic by the name Leonhard Lahaye is included in the owners and when one searches even more, Arnold Lahaye surfaces and hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1852. Arnold Lahaye was probably the father of Leonhard Lahaye and the Lahayes were a longtime family in Suhl w/ close ties to Liège where the Lahaye's found patent protection for a „Spiralfederschlosse“ / Spiral Lock contraption under Belgian #121257 - May 6th, 1896. So not only was Römerwerke Waffenfabrik / Röhmer-Werke a formidable shop / weapons making centre but also had close ties to the Belgian mechanics, where Römerwerke Waffenfabrik / Röhmer-Werke could at a minimum source barrel blanks from Liège.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

as stated, and shown in your photo, the r over w with the intertwined s, is too close not to be related to the mark on daryl's gun....and i will bow to the incredible background and historical knowledge you bring to this game.

i am but a poor lad, with a worn copy of "the standard directory of proof marks", by gerhard wirnsberger and translated by r. a. steindler.... and with the curiosity to search.

and i will succumb to a recurring urge....and pose a question; out of all this astonishing knowledge, particularly of the austrian/german and belgian gunmakers....surely there must be some indication of some of their favored biers.

best regards,

tom

Burgbrauerei Suhl (founded in 1862, lateron also referred to as Jungs Brauerei). Became a VEB in 1972, closed in 1990. The data given however are conflicting (I also saw 1873-1992).
Nothing left of it, being replaced by four utterly ugly new buildings.

In Suhl-Heinrichs, there was Krells Brauerei.

Carcano