doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com For appearance's sake...

Did you ever buy a gun (or date a women) just because you liked how they looked?

Guilty on both counts here. Usually there's a bit more to the equation, but psychologists will tell you that the human "male" animal is clearly "visually" stimulated. Women in general (& all of their clothing and cosmetic makers) along with most of the better gunmakers clearly know this fact to be so damnedably-true and the "packaging" on any and all of these items is usually very-carefully considered before anything is placed upon "display".

Societal forces are ever-present in our lives (even in our later years), and while never being too-much of a "slave to fashion" myself, I find myself here playing a game I thought was well-over for me. I'm usually a "form controlling function" kind-of guy and I normally don't spend much time fussing over the "decorations". Economics have also always intruded into my life, so while I might appreciate the "better" options I usually default to the more practical solutions. True to my (much diluted) Scotch-heritage, I usually do a fairly complete "cost-benefit" analysis on something before I pony-up the cash for it. In this case, however, I've gone a bit astray.

LC Smith guns usually don't get much love here, and for reasons typically associated with "mass production". But...before Lyman C. Smith sold his gunmaking enterprise to the Hunter brothers (wayyy back in 1888), his shop was much more-aligned with the British model of "master and apprentice" gunmaking, and while the Hunter Brother's in Fulton, New York cranked out something like a half a million LC Smith guns over their 50-plus years of production, the much-smaller operation in Syracuse, New York only produced something like 6 thousand guns over it's relatively-short production period (and from only 1886 to 1888-9 for the hammerless guns). With the completion of the sale of the company in late 1888, the whole enterprise was loaded-up and carted-off to the "new" location in Fulton and production of guns resumed there (some say as early as in 1889). For the first few years, the guns remained largely unchanged, using the same designs and models (along with the actions, barrels and wood) previously secured by the earlier version of that gunmaking enterprise. This is one of those guns...





I don't believe I've handled or even seen a "Syracuse" type or grade of "Elsie" before this Quality 2 gun, and if I had, it must have been a specimen in very poor-condition because I simply don't remember finding it very attractive. Up until this point, all the LC Smith guns I'd ever really handled were the later Fulton models (& primarily field grades). I had actually acquired a very-plain Quality 1 gun shortly before this one (the earliest iteration of the "Field Grade" gun), there was a "Monogram" in the shop for a year or so that I got to measure and look-over fully, and I've seen and handled quite a few "Specialty Grade" guns over the years.

While all the Fulton guns were seemingly "flat-bottomed" actions the Syracuse guns were definitely not, with big "bolsters" filed into the base of each action and with matching shapes incorporated into the heads of the best "English" walnut stocks that were used almost exclusively then. While this gun was clearly not made in Syracuse (it's a 1st year Fulton gun, made in 1890) it is so-different than any of the guns that came after it and...it really pleases my eye to behold it.

It's a big and accordingly-heavy 30-inch tubed 12-gauge, made when one gun "had to do it all" & I'm certainly not going to be hauling it around in the uplands anytime soon. It's a got a bit too-much drop for me and it's a little short for me as well but...I look at it the way I used to look at my grandfather's Elsie, when all of this gun stuff was still "new" to me. It is just so "American" to me (and in so-many ways!) that I get a real "kick" out of it (and that seems to be getting harder for me to do these days). Pure fun, and hopefully some function to follow shortly.

Nice gun Lloyd,@and I am fairly sure that you don’t mean to rub it in that I should have kept on bidding on that “English” Elsie at Southams.

Parabola: Thank you! It would have been truly neat for you to acquire that "English" gun (and I was a little surprised by the timing of your post about it here).

These "transitional" guns have all the hallmarks of the earlier Syracuse guns (bushed firing-pins, the 1st version of the "stop-check", the deeply-bolstered frame with the square barrel lug, rounded [instead of flattened] screwheads, etc.) but many "purists" in the LC Smith world do not consider any gun to be a true "Syracuse" Smith without the "LC Smith - maker" stamp on the top rib (perhaps fewer-numbers of Syracuse ID'd guns make for a more-exclusive club of owners?).

The late John Houchins, however, in his truly-substantial tome about these guns (LC Smith "The Legend Lives") counts the very-early production of guns at Fulton in with the total production of guns from the Syracuse operation, and moreover, James Stubbendieck (the man who reviews the historic [& handwritten] records and then authors the "official gun history letters" for many in the LC Smith Organization), in his most recent book on "LC Smith Production Records" also differentiates these early guns from all the later production at Hunter Arms.






Much ado about nothing here, I'm sure, but entertaining for me all the same. I was never able to make any sense of these "earlier" Smith guns (at least before these two books were finally written) and there still remains, it seems, some additional mysteries about the numbers of guns produced during this "transitional" period.

These guns are "Americana" at it's finest point of production, I believe, and are darn-seldom encountered. This one came out of Alaska, of all places (!).

On the off-chance that our own Dr. Drew is around today, here are the close-ups of the mostly-nice Damascus pattern on these tubes (wear largely obscures the pattern nearer to the breach):





I've deciphered them to be 3-bar Damascus, or "Good Damascus" as the advertising (from Houchin's book) for that era of LC Smith production would identify them. Evidently, later Quality 2 guns went with "twist" barrels as a cost-cutting measure (the 1st of many that the later Smith guns would ultimately endure).

At a full 30-inches, they are quite substantial (nearly 4-lbs) and choked "modified" in both tubes. The chambers are clearly 2 3/4-inch. Shooting it with "appropriate" ammunition seems almost anemic, but anything much faster or heavier will cause the 3-position safety to go onto "safe" from the rearward "off" position (using the "forward" setting for "automatic" function doesn't seem have this issue).

Another early "Fulton-era" feature on this gun is the gutta-percha (not Bakelite) "Double-Dog" buttplate and matching grip cap. Guns produced in Syracuse never had this particular feature (and it was evidently a very short-lived option even at Fulton).

You are learning Lloyd, and yes if it doesn't have L.C. Smith Maker Syracuse, N.Y. on the center rib it is not a "true" Syracuse L.C. Smith.

Point taken David.

But...given all of the attributes mentioned here earlier, I consider these earliest Fulton guns to be the arguable "best" of both of those worlds (and in the terms of numbers produced, they are clearly the most "rare"). By even mid-1891 they looked quite different from the earlier guns (much smaller bolsters and with a now-rounded barrel lug) and by sometime in 1893 they all had that now-classic "Fulton flat-bottom" frame, which carried-on throughout all of the guns (many thousands!) that followed. While these circa 1890 guns might not have been assembled in Syracuse, IMHO they were the very last of the truly "Syracuse" type of LC Smith guns to be built.


I shamelessly "snipped" this pix from the LC SMith webpage (I believe Mr. Williamson here is the originator)


My own two "transitional" guns, the 1891 Quality 1 is the top gun (I believe the "Fulton Quality 2 gun" shown above is misdated, I think it's an earlier gun)


My 1890 Quality 2 gun (I wish I could better index that bottom screw, maybe after shooting it for a while?) and my 1901 Grade F Hammer gun. The trigger assembly is set further back on the post-1890 Fulton guns as well, see above for a comparison.


More "snipped" photography. I believe the bottom gun is an ejector model (1st year).


My 1890 Quality 2, as a comparison to the 1888 (presumed) and the 1892(?) Quality 2 guns above. All these "Elsies" have simply-huge top ribs (when compared to their English and European counterparts).

To be completely fair to Mr. Williamson here (who has done yeoman's work on this subject [he created & published the only extant database on Syracuse serial numbers]) the circa 1890 guns do seem to have less-full (more angular) breech balls. The Syracuse guns have the more fully-rounded spheres (and curious indentations on either side of the toplever that nobody seems to be able to explain?).

None of this means anything in the "real" world of course, but for gun guys this minutiae is the "fun" stuff.

Lloyd, it is "fun" stuff and I am always looking for more information, unfortunately the "old timers" that knew about these guns are long gone, one such person was Russ Rupel and I forgot the name he used on here and I'm sure some out there know what it was. He had a few complete collections of shotguns and for the Syracuse line he had Quality 2-7. When I was researching hammer Syracuse guns and collecting serial numbers I was mainly interested in the hammer guns because at the time there was little information on them. Russ gave me his serial number of both hammer and hammerless which totaled about 45. After that I started collecting both hammer and hammerless and pictures when available. As of this day I have 153 serial numbers from L.C. Smith Maker of Baker Guns, Syracuse, N.Y. 1877-1883 of both double barrel and 3 barrel shotguns. From 1883-1884, I have 121 hammer guns all doubles no 3 barrels made. From 1886-1889* I have 403 hammer and hammerless gun serial numbers. The highest in my records that has surfaced is a Quality 2 s/n 23553 and most likely is an early 1889 Syracuse gun before production started in Fulton this same year.

There are Syracuse guns that were sent back to Fulton for various parts, such as barrels and these were made just like the guns of Syracuse and serial numbered to the original gun. There is another that was a Quality C hammer gun (shown in Houchins' book) without a forearm, this gun was sent back to Fulton and had a forearm made but also had a Quality 2 hammerless gun made with the same serial number to go with it.
Another is a Syracuse hammer gun s/n 12024 Quality D double barrel 30, right barrel 12 ga, left barrel 44-40.
There are others.

*Syracuse Gun Company was sold in 1888 to Hunter Arms and in the later part of 1889 production started in Fulton, but Syracuse did produce a catalog for 1889, basically the same catalog as 1888.

Lloyd, did you ever figure out why these so-called Transition guns of Fulton have all the attributes of a Syracuse gun? Let me know what you or anyone thinks.

Also Lloyd, to "time" that front trigger plate screw, remove it and slightly file around the whole bottom of the head, and I mean slightly. This will drop the head so it bottoms out and "times" it. And please use the right screw driver that fits the slot in width and length.

David: I've never had to stand-up a new business or even make a payroll, but I've watched one happen rather closely. It's always quite daunting.

To buy an ongoing business and then cart it off to a new location, all the while meeting the ongoing payroll...would be quite the undertaking. I suspect that doing it in 1888 wouldn't be quite as complicated as it would be today (alot less bureaucracy to deal with then) but it still would be a monumental task. I know that there were a lot of Hunter Brothers (I think 5, not counting a sister?) so maybe this wasn't as much of a challenge for them at that time(?) but...I suspect that the whole process was still quite the "adventure". The Hunters were financially destroyed much later (in a very suspicious political situation) but at this time they were quite flush by all reports.

As it has been speculated many times before in the literature on this subject (Houchins mainly) and elsewhere of course (I've also likely read about this in threads on previous versions of the LC Smith webpage as well) when the company was relocated, lots of inventory (i.e., unfinished guns and gunmaking materials [including wood, barrels, & actions]) was hauled over to Fulton, NY and production finally got going there at sometime in late 1889 (as you mentioned here earlier). I strongly suspect that the first guns produced in Fulton were all built using parts supplied by the previous iteration of company. It would be the easiest way to get a product onto the market and to get some income flowing (which is critical for any new business). I suspect that many of the "new" employees at Fulton were also from the "earlier" company, so they just continued to build them in a way that they were already familiar with.

After just a few short months, (I'm guessing here) new processes were introduced to help streamline production. This likely accounts for the subtle changes in even the earliest gun's produced there (like no more rounded breech-balls and no engraving on the top ribs?). By late 1892, automatic ejectors were introduced, and by early 1893 all the frames started to look like Fulton guns to me (Houchins stops including Fulton guns with Syracuse production at this point) . The rest, as they say, is history (and evidently lots of it can't be documented).

There were 6 brothers and 1 sister, the 6 brothers had in one way or another an interest in the Hunter Arms Gun Co. The sister married George Livermore who later on with Leroy Smith and a few other business men started the Ithaca Gun Co. In Houchins' book he states the booklet given to George from Lyman was one of the brothers, he was not. There are mistakes in Houchins' book but we all make them. Still a very interesting book to own if you are interested in L.C. Smiths.

The workers from Syracuse that wanted to go to Fulton were welcome to do so.

The reason these early Fulton guns had the attributes of the Syracuse guns was because of the machinery and dies and all the tooling to make the Syracuse guns, until Hunter Arms could make their own dies and tooling, and so the changes were mainly a cost factor.

Klunkermeister was the name Russ went by. I had many animated phone conversations with him, as he had an interest in sliding breech guns, as well. He had been using a Darne R model in a boat one time, and slid the breech off the rails, dropping it over the side of the boat, never to be seen again. Try as I might, I couldn’t get him to understand that a Charlin is a different gun, by a different manufacturer, and shared no parts with a Darne. He asked me several times how to get the breech off his Charlin, and would not believe it took tools to do it.

He had a special hatred for Winchester model 21s, believing they were no better than a Savage 311. He and Don Moody, RIP, also, had many dust ups over that.

When I look at a guys profile here, and see he joined in 2002, and was retired at that time, I’m relatively certain I know why they don’t post anymore.

Best,
Ted