doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Nelson Nickel Steel??? Liège for R. Ménard-Rouen

Given as made by A. Forgeron in 1930. It has the >>Purdey Nose<<. Fait Pour R(René??) Ménard of Rouen, France.......

Anyone have a similar platform w/ Nelson Nickel Steel?? From where did ole Nelson hail? A quick search yields that there was a double retailed in Mayenne, France wearing Nelson Nickel Steel tubes.











Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Another fused AC
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=658165

Scroll down to post #14 here
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/damascus-vintage-steel-barrel-identification.470696/

https://www.collectorebooks.com/gregg01/shotgun3/Lot-1436A.htm

I couldn't find a Nelson Steel tradename affiliated with Cockerill-Sambre

I spent a summer in Rouen. Can't believe I missed a gun maker/dealer. But it wasn't exactly a vacation. I was keeping track of about 30 college kids from Iowa who were there studying French and living with local families.

Mr. Brown, that was Guard Duty. Not sure how you had any time.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

From Hause ShotgunWorld Ref - Rudolf Vozzerger Zacher - given as wearing Nelson Nickel Steel from 1914 - Wiepert proof-date. Made by Forgeron but passed thru a couple proof-facilities.









Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to post the GunBroker link:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1088655969

Anyone think the Belgian Platform w/ Nelson Nickel Steel is actually worth $500 + expenses?

At one time it looks to have been a nice piece.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

i have eyeballed the gun, rather like the treatment of the ball and beads....but $500 is questionable.

as you say, it was once a fairly nice gun.

best regards,

tom

With your Good Eye¿

I have heard a lot of gun terms here, but >>Beads<< escapes me for the moment¿

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

i try and use the good eye - rather than the glass one...

ball & bead breeches might be easiest explained by a few photos from a 1902 w & c scott/webley screwgrip gun i bought a few weeks back;

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/1085152120

photos # 21 thru 24 show the typical rounded balls and the beaded edges that define them - it this case very handsomely done to my eye(s).

best,

tom

Interesting side frame reinforcement.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, it appears your snagged one with Belts & Braces¿

Serbus,

Rainey
rse

Thanks to you, Tom, it didn’t take long for me to learn something new this day ie beaded breeches.

And, yes, that bolstered frame is “interesting”.

(With that location I have to believe you bought it from my old hang out - Green Top - where I purchased my first 16b SxS and got hopelessly started down this path. Enjoy it in good health.)

I agree w/ speûde brădéōs.









Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I've also done the trip to France with high school kids, but for shorter periods of time. Can't say that I miss that part of the job. Although being paid to spend time in France is one positive.

Well, the Current Custodian(NY Police - Game & Fish - PH - Something) finally dropped the price a bit but some Nimrod pushed the bid up to $500. Anyway, I now am the Current Custodian of a dainty, mechanically superior tool by Alphonse Forgeron from 1930. Inside of the tubes are just stellar. A. Forgeron typically used Cap(Tête d’aigle) or Jean Falla rolled tubes but for the moment I just am not sure who was rolling the Nelson Nickel Steel??


>>DU<<maybe??




A. Forgeron Trademark




Purdey Nose & Water-Table touchmarks....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The father of the NY Custodian was Best Buds w/ Dewey Loeffel and Polluter(GM Fluids) Dewey Loeffel didn't want his son nor grandson to have any of his guns, gifted the Alphonse Forgeron to said NY Policeman.....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

In one year(+), Alfie had handed the reins of the Compagnie over to J. Boulanger in 1932.



Interesting to my simple mind is that the cut-out at the bottom of the standing breech is quite similar in Alfie's A&D Body Actions(Boxlocks) & his Sidelocks.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I find it interesting that the medallion is atop the stock?



Regarding the weight stamped on the tubeset, 1,170 kg in this case, my Trusty, Dusty, Kitchen scales measure the mass @ 1,153 kg, which has a net difference of 6/10ths of an Ounce. Tubeset length is 68 cm on the nose.

So, let's say you have you have a stamp of 1,170 kg for the tubeset. What is state of the tubeset when measured and how much honing, etc. might be performed after the weight measurement? Too, I assume the sling swivels were not installed when the weight measurement was preformed?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Considering the constriction / „Choke“, what was the Belgian nominal bore diameter for a 16 and was the >>16.9<<mm measurement made @ the muzzle?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Nice one I had also noticed it. Top view looked quite impressive with rounded top, tasteful engraving on breech balls and very nice matting on the rib(much better than average). Looks to be a wand!

Indeed a Wand with a short stock....


Looks like Post 1924 that the Belgians adopted the German Choke designation by just stamping >>Choke<< if the constriction was 0.008" or more. I assume that Germans were for the most part in Charge and made this rules change.

So here they give a nominal bore of 16.9mm, which is a skosh larger than the average 16 bore @ the time.

The left tube measures around 16.13mm at the muzzle while the right tube has a diameter of 16.4mm at the muzzle.

Using a value of 3% in the difference in the weight of the tubeset @ 1,170 kg, would mean that the current weight couldn't be 35 grammes less without be considered >>Out Of Proof<<.

My dusty kitchen scale value of 1,153 kg / stamped value of 1,170 equals a 1% difference for honing and not taking account of the sling swivel weight.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

SuperFund Site Maker(Polluter of Hudson River???) Dewey Loeffel had his gun safes in his cellar or basement and that was the reason for the external condition. To be honest, the guns doesn't look to have been shot many times @ all.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

as per the wirnsberger/steindler text; the rules effective 23 june, 1924, most barrel makings disappeared, leaving only CHOKE and CH B RAYE. bores were determined 8.6" (22cm) from breech, and CHOKE indicated .008 or greater constriction - but without marking the degree of choke. thus the 16.9 would be the bore, and degree of choke would be measured in reference to that....so you have .016 & .020, or there abouts....

didn't see the 3% weight differential reference in my quick look, but that agrees with my (old) memory...and from that same source, i believe the weight was taken when barrel set was finished (but perhaps prior to bluing).

hard not to like a nice light, well made 16, with useful choking - enjoy it in good health.

best regards,

tom

Again, I think that the Germans were in charge in Liège & that even adds to it. I plan to pattern it with big shot, even if Turkey Season closed today......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

i had never made the connection that the german occupation would have naturally driven changes in the belgian proof rules...both logical and likely.

overnight another "new thought" has floated to the top, after your reference to your trusty & rusty kitchen scales; i have a similar set of the very handy digital scales - purchased at an estate sale for a few bucks - and i have always "assumed" were reasonably accurate. after reading your post, relating a 1% variation from the proof marked weight, i have realized that such a variation could easily be "baked into the cake"...and i have resolved to search out some sort of test measurement to verify their accuracy.

best regards,

tom

I don't think the Germans ran anything in Belgium after 1918. German soldiers of the Brussels garrison mutinied against their officers November 9, 1918. Nov. 11 an Armistice was signed and the last of the German troops left Belgium Nov. 23. The day before King Albert 1 made his Joyous Entry into Brussels. The 120,000 workers that had been deported to Germany came home. Those that had remained in the arms industry probably didn't have warm feelings toward the Germans.

Fair Point, but I still think the Germans drove the Proof Kart. They set the bar as well as the tone, then a decade later they took over.

If you reload powder & have a digital scale, typically there's a test cylinder with it.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Well, I found my 100 gramme test cylinder & checked the Trusty, Dusty Kitchen Scales and indeed they are spot-on, so I hold with the 1%.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Any other Board Member have a >>Between the Wars<< Belgian 16 bore double with good stamps that we could also use as another example and has a set of Kat Certified, Trusty, Dusty, Rusty, Accurate Kitchen Digital Scales?

I'll start another thread with Austrian tubeset weights.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Well, I am glad my Trusty, Dusty, Kitchen Kat Certified Scales are accurate as I just measured a set of E. Bernard Böhler Eclair(12 Bore) that were stamped as >>P(oids???) 1K375.9<< and those bad boys fell short of the target weight by about 4 oz short so we probably don't want to talk about that. But it does carry a decimal so I would say that dates it somehow?

I assume the P notes Poids?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I said I would start another thread just for the Borovlje / Ferlach weights, but I thought I'd add this Ferdinand Košat - 1927 - Hammergun w/ sideclips; Boehler Blitz Stahl 73.5 cm tubeset length of 1585(msr)g / 1600(stamped)g which again equates to 1%. Heavy Beast She is @ about 7 lbs. I do ponder the intended use of such a Beast by Ferdinand Koschat?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I was looking for an early Ferlacher with a tubeset weight stamp, which must have been introduced @ the turn of the 20th Century? I seem to recall that date stamping occurred as early as 1897 and the below Josef Hambrusch hammer 76.5cm example has a 1899 preliminary datastring and a 1900 final datastring but no weight applied. Now I don't exactly know how that worked because a tubeset with a preliminary datastring had to be submitted in that year as the tubeset was temporarily exempt from proof for less than one year. In Austria under Decree Number 174 on August 23rd, 1899, a prooflaw update was issued to address the need for a semi-smokeless proof. Here is where they Nitro Stamps were added.






Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ah, I was wanting to make the statement that maybe Biks(Capes) & Kombos didn't have the weight stamped on them because the weight stamp was to ferret out if the tubeset had been chopped. But I guess you an chop a Biks Tubeset?

Anyway, this Michael Perkonig Biks from 1913 in 16 - 8X57R(360) 70cm length tubeset is stamped 1712 grammes whilst it weighs 1717 grammes. But scope mounts bases were added, so that accounts for the added weight. Not sure how much the mounts bases would weigh but they add weight. Overall it weights 3.359 kg.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse