doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns

Hello Argo.

Just a couple of small points that I do hope you don't mind me bringing up. I think the chamber dimension is stamped 18,8. It chambers 12 gauge snap caps very nicely. And I'm also pretty sure the date is 1873.

But if I could trouble you one more time. The locks are signed T. Murat. [img]https://imgur.com/a/Mo7YKfW[/img]

I did a search and saw that you had mentioned an Antoine Murat as an earlier lock maker, do you have any information on a T. Murat?

So far I'm pleased with the workmanship of this gun. I think it is going to clean up quite nicely

Thank you.

Fixed the entry. The Serial numbers now indicate that during the 1870's Didier Drevet only SN'd 100 barrels a year. He never got over 300 before he retired and this is an indication of his insistence on quality - probably why Darne went with their own barrels.

Can't run down Thomas Murat at the moment but surely he's in the Murat family. Wonder if that mark is actually a "T" - It might be Louis Murat but note the "J"....I'd suspect this is Jean-Basson Murat. This line might help:

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=572738&page=1
There is a Murat family from Saint-Etienne who were famous lock makers/action makers ("Platiners" - see the Fr-English dictionary on this site) for a couple of centuries. Louis Murat was especially well known around the 1850's. This line (translated to English) might provide a clue (bad machine translation - I can do better) - Note the connection to Murat-Cizeron:

FAB500 might have more specific information.

A few other references:
https://www.poussecornet.com/lot/15...int-etienne-a-chien-exterieur-calibre-20
Fusil artisan de SAINT ETIENNE à chien extérieur, calibre 20. Marqué C. Martinier Collin (avant achat par Manufrance en 1884). Canon signé Ravel Dubessy. Damas français. Platine marquée Rebos Murat (platineur 1855/1867). Décors arabesques sur tonnerre, bascule, pontet, devant. Crosse en loupe de noyer. Canon lisse juxtaposé de 680 mm. Poids: 2.55 kg. Longueur totale : 1075 mm. N°série: 657. Catégorie D

Jean Murat, one of the Saint Etienne arms inspectors from 1860's
https://www.tircollection.com/t46540-controleurs-d-armes-1858-1878
18 décembre 1866, MAS à Inspecteur :
J’ai l’honneur de vous adresser un aperçu des contrôleurs qui nous seront nécessaires pour pouvoir recevoir, avec toute garantie, une fabrication courante de 500 pièces par jour. J’ai été frappé moi-même du chiffre auquel je suis parvenu, qui n’a cependant rien d’exagéré, d’autant plus que 500 pièces par jour ne donnent que 150 000 armes par an et qu’il faudra aller, dès la fin de 1867, je l’espère, à 700 pièces par jour pour avoir 200 000 armes en 1868. De plus, nous avons ici 5 à 6 contrôleurs qui nous rendront peu de service par leur lenteur et leur de capacité.
Je porte en regard les contrôleurs que nous possédons avec leur emploi, et la 3ème colonne indique ceux qui nous manqueraient.
Pour commencer à combler ces vides, nous pourrions parfaitement utiliser les contrôleurs retraités :
Descours Antoine, monteur – Meyrieux César, platineur – Murat Jean, platineur – Luzier Jean Baptiste, garnisseur et acheveur de canons.

https://archive.org/stream/annales34loirgoog/annales34loirgoog_djvu.txt
M. MURAT Jean-Basson, platineur, à la Tour-en- Jarret. - No 66.
M. MURAT Louis, platineur, rue delà Badouillère, 23.— N» 6.

Thank you. That's great info.

I have a French 12GA SXS with not a whole lot of information on it.
On the barrel flats it has:
ST ETIENNE 18 3 (both)
Just below this on the Left barrel it has an oval stamp with F8C and maybe a small IE with a line under it at the end
The right barrel has the serial number 1800 stamped just after the sling mount.
The rib between the barrels has a G and what looks like a cursive G or j maybe.
The flats have a Crown with 3 prongs and PT below it, RECTIFIE in semi circle with P.D below it, and the number 65
The Foregrip has:
1800 stamped in the metal, and no other markings
The receiver flats have:
Right side it is stamped with the crown PT
Left side has the serial number 1800
Blow that there is a dot and below that just to the left is a post (it looks like an i with an offset dot)

Barrels are 27" and are not very heavy. They are steel and nor Damascus.
There is a sling mount that swivels front to back that is attached to the underside rib about 4.5 inches in front of the foregrip.
Furniture matches
No markings under the butt plate.
Engraving around screws/pins and on top of action release.

Sorry for these poor descriptions, I have no way to insert images.
Any help identifying is appreciated, Thanks!

If you want to email me pictures, I’ll get them up on the board for you. What you are describing sounds like a basic 12 gauge French boxlock that was proofed in St. Etienne. When I say basic, please remember there is very little that is produced today that can compare.

tedjs@usfamily.net

Best,
Ted

Pics Sent, thank you!

Dan’s photos:









Dan sent quite a few photos, but, I was pretty close on the first guess. Looking at the photos I see what looks to be an amateurish restock, and a very basic boxlock of French original. Single proofed for powder T, short chambers, I’d wager tight chokes. It isn’t worth a fortune, the bores might be pitted, or rusted between the ribs, but, a good gunsmith can make the call as to whether it can be fired or not.


Best,
Ted

Agree with Ted. Side clips but very basic. Verney Caron top key. I'd hazard that "F8Cie" should be "F & Cie" (Cie = "company). No telling who this might be. The choke stamp is very basic.. .just "Rectifie" (no "choke") and P.D. who will be the barrel honer. No idea who this might be. Agree on the restock - full pistol grip rather than the French half-grip. 65mm chambers (2 1/2") = post 1924.

Thank you!
The bores are bright and shiny with no rust or pitting, I should have taken a pic of them. Its a nice tight gun, and everything functions as it should. I have not shot it. I do have some 2" 12ga 7/8oz #8 plastic hull shells from RST, can they be shot in this gun? Does a gun like this have any value?

Thank you Ted for posting the pictures!