doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Scherping Double - First shoot

Long Post:
Shot a Scherping double rifle in, allegedly, 43 Mauser, for the first time this weekend. The tiny front sight blade is very hard to see nested in the fixed notch rear sight, not sure how consistent my hold was. It has one fixed blade, a flip up 200 yard blade, and a flip up tang ring, FYI. Please pardon my ghetto target, humped it up a hill and clipped it to a juniper.

**Seeking any suggestions, advice and comments.

Rounds shot on this first attempt were Buffalo Arms 43 Mauser (11/15x60R) Black Powder Ammo, 385 Grain.

Shot 3 left/right combinations.

First was at 50 yards and nothing hit the paper (!).

Second was at 30 yards.
Hits were roughly 4” high, 2” right for the right barrel, 2” left for the left barrel.

Third was at 30 yards.
Similar hit with the right barrel, left was close to the bull’s eye, but zero trust that I held correctly, could be a “flyer” in the right direction.

Brass:
Have 40 empty Bertram 43 Mauser cases, plus 20 more when the Buffalo Arms black powder loads get shot up.
Bullets:
Have 100 Hawk 400 grain .446 dia. .025 jacket thickness bullets
Have 50 Buffalo Arms 340 grain .446 hand cast lead bullets with some sort of lube in the three grooves.

I plan on loading up some of the empty brass with 400 grain Hawk and 340 grain Buffalo Arms with the nitro for black starting loads. Any suggestions on this?

Any thoughts on the observations above on the 30 yard shots?

With black powder, do you run a brush or patch between shots? I have a bore snake that’s easy to take to the field. Had never shot black powder and the smoke was glorious! If you clean between shots, do you add anything to a patch, like Hoppes Black Powder Bore Cleaner?

Cleaned up the brass with Dawn and hot water, crazy how much gunk is left in the brass.

On reloading brass that was shot in the double, would you recommend full-length resize or just run the neck up to seat the bullet?

The difference between the virgin and shot brass is a slightly sharper shoulder a bit farther out. Anything sketchy about this? The gun closed and opened just fine, no sign of pressure.

Thank you for any insights. The plan is to get this regulated as close as possible and use the heck out of it.

Use that rear peep. Makes the other two sight much easier to see for old eyes. Just my thoughts most of Buffalo Arms ammo for old guns isn't loaded up to original velocities. Might try reloading some with original powder amounts.

Thanks, Mike, will do on using the peep and matching original powder amounts when reloading.

Mt Al,
Mike Harrel's advice is correct, but mine is only additional. I suggest you examine the front sight under magnification to see if a "bead" has broken off (will cause "high" shots). You asked about cleaning between shots, you should shoot both barrels as quickly as you can line the sights up for the second shot (it helps to shoot on two side by side targets, right barrel right target left barrel left target, so you don't take time trying to see where the first shot hit. You can transfer point og impact from one target to the other to determine if the barrels are shooting "wide" or "crossing"). You should let the barrels cool to ambient temperature between each pair of shots, if you clean the barrels, you can do it while cooling between the pairs of shots. You should shoot three pairs of shots at first and it might be helpful to see how cleaning between each pair of shots differs from cleaning after 3 pairs with regard to points of impact. As indicated by Mike Harrel's advice, if the barrels shoot "wide" more velocity is needed, and if they "cross" less velocity is needed. Velocity can be varied by power charge or bullet weight. When reloading, I advise against setting the shoulder back since this will cause "head separation" and case loss and Bertram doesn't give theirs away. The way I avoid setting the shoulders back is to smoke a fired case neck/shoulder or color it with a magic marker and then adjust the sizing die to just kiss the shoulder. Adjust a little at a time and the progress will be obvious from the die rubbing the smoke/magic marker off. If you set the die according to the die maker's instructions will likely result in setting the necks back. Rimmed and belted cases are notorious for this because they don't headspace on the shoulder and its location is not as strictly controlled in chambering. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

Mike,
Extremely helpful and appreciated! I wondered about a bead falling off the front blade and will take a close look.

I am hoping that a nitro for black load will significantly reduce the need for more frequent barrel cleaning.

Should have bought a box of Hawk 350 grain in addition to the 400 in terms of lighter weight bullet getting more velocity to address the wider impact. Will do so for early Christmas present.

Appreciated the die adjustment/loading advice as well, need to preserve these cases for as long as possible. The virgin brass necks are too tight to seat a bullet so will need to go through the expander ball process, at least that's what I assume. I can do the same process w/magic marker and adjusting so it doesn't get full length resized, correct?

Interestingly the Buffalo Arms cases were made from 50-110 whereas the Bertram looks straight-up 43 Mauser.


20+ years ago I was on this path with a 9x57R double rifle drilling w/claw scope but life/kids/job/travel made it challenging. Brass was easy, using a 35 whelen expander in 8x57R cases. Tried a few different loadings but it consistently had vertical separation of over 10" at 100 yards. This time will be different.

Thank you

I have 2 43 Mausers that I played with 25 years ago or so. One is a hammer combo that except for having a 16 gauge shotgun barrel alongside looks like yours. Its groove diameter is .439 which was apparently common for them as Lyman specified their mould 439186 (385 grains) for 11mm Mauser. RCBS has a similar mould at 370 grains. At the time I was working up some smokeless loads for it (with only a little brass on hand and shooting 2 shot groups at 50 yards) the best load was 30 grains of 4198 giving a 3/4 inch group falling 2 inches high and 2 inches left of the sighting point. At 100 yards, a lighter load of 28 grains did well. The bullet was seated long to get it closer to the rifling and lower the pressure. I did a ladder test with Reloader 7 at 100 that suggested that 24 to 25 grains of that powder might work well. 27 and 29 grains of 5744 did not do well but with the 29 grains 3 of the 5 shots at 100 were in 4.5 inches and I noted to try increasing that load. My other rifle is a 71 Mauser carbine and it has the other common size of .446. Besides the 439186 (which casts larger) I have Lyman mould 446110 but the hollow point version which casts at 340 grains (the more common non hollow point - therefore heavier - might be the bullet for you). I had only tried it with the old and no longer made 4759 which gave me .6 to 1 inch groups at 50 yards. As with most military rifles the lowest sight setting shot high at 100 so I modified the sights to shoot lower. With black powder at 100 I tried 84 and 86 grains but noted that I might try 80 to 82. The 84 grains with the bullet seated out gave me a 5 shot group at 100 of 4.3x2.6 inches slightly low and to the right of my aiming point. I only shoot cast bullets. I only neck size and usually not the entire neck but just the part of it that holds the bullet. These tests were done long enough ago that I can't say what black powder I used. For the last 20 years or so I have been shooting BPCR and using excellent Swiss powder in a 1 1/2 grade. Loading black powder in a target situation is not a science but an art. There are many variables to be explored. If, with the bullet seated out to approach the lands and with the powder load that you want to try with a wad seated on the powder with just a little compression, you find there would be a gap between the wad and the base of the bullet, you can add more wads or use some amaranth seed on top of the powder before adding the wad. I have to do this with a case that would hold 115 grains of powder and I only want to shoot 85 grains in. To maintain accuracy for rapidly repeating shoots in BPCR, I originally used a blow tube between shots but soon switched to a slightly damp patch (1 NAPA water soluble cutting oil to 6 water) run down the barrel on a nylon brush followed by a quick pass of a bore swab to the chamber (a wet chamber can cause case separation). For hunting, you should be able to get several shots off before accuracy drops too much. The other trick for hunting (not legal for BPCR) is to replace a few percent (less than 10%) of the weight of the BP with a smokeless powder loaded first into the case. This is called a duplex load and will cause the BP to burn much cleaner. Writing this has got me wanting to play with these rifles again so thanks for that.

I have an E. Goldmann double in 11.15 X 60R that took me six months and a pile of lead and powder to get regulated. Half mentioned what I ended up doing to get the rifle regulated. I shoot 5 grs. of SR-4759 under I believe 66 grs. of Schuetzen or GOEX 2F. Bullet Is Lyman's cast at 350 grs., give or take a few either way....because I don't remember exactly....and lube is SPG. Frankly, it shoots cleaner than some of my smokeless loads in other rifles. It will stay within 2 1/2 inches, composite group, at 65 yards.

GOEX made 2F "Olde Eynsford" shows promise but sadly, as with SR-4759 it is no longer made.

If you don't have it, Grahame Wright's book on shooting the British double was a great help to me. So was the "SPG Black Powder Reloading Primer".

Mt Al
A traditional conversion factor for Black Powder to Smokeless NFB is: 40 to 45% of the BP weight of 4198. Start at the low end and work up. If you are using BP you can use a soft undersize bullet and SPG Lube (or other non-petroleum lube for BP) and the BP will cause obturation to expand the bullet to fit. With Smokeless powder, sufficient obturation usually does not occur so a harder bullet, a couple thousandths over groove diameter, and a common cast bullet smokeless lube (such as 50/50 beeswax/Alox NRA Formula or commercial equivalent) would be appropriate. Cases can be made from 45-90 cases by bending the rims forward with a "button die" and turn to .585-595" then FL size. They will expand 10-15 thousandths ahead of the solid head, but that is usually acceptable because 43 Mauser dies are large enough that the cases will only expand once in that area. With BPCR shooters using 45-90 rifles, these cases are easier to find, cheaper than 50-110 and easier to convert.
Regarding your 9x57R, double rifles that were regulated without a scope often have the regulation altered if a scope is mounted. This may have been your problem.
The above members have given good advice, you would do well to follow it where appropriate.
Mike

HalfaDouble, sharps4590 and Mike,

Much appreciated again, great information to use on this project.

sharps4590, that's a very tight group at 65 yards, would love to have even a 5" group at that range.

Mike, hope my collection of 60 cases lasts a while and I'll be on the lookout for more but very nice to know that other cases can be converted.

I have the Lee 2 die set and looks like I'll need the universal flaring die to open the mouths a bit more for the lead bullet.

Thank you, gentlemen and I'll post progress.

Al, 4-5 inches was a lot more common. I didn't see results like that until I duplexed and I should have said 2 1/2 - 3 inches. Still minute of deer. Loading black or duplexed loads your cases should last indefinitely. My first cases are 25 years old and the first couple years they got a workout. Those were re-formed 348 WCF, BACO cases with the "A" base turned into the base. My next cases were Bertram and, so far, so good.

I have the Lee dies and use their flaring tool. I used a .457 sizing die for years, which sized nothing and weeped something terrible. I finally broke down and bought a proper die from BACO and I don't remember what it is...lol!! I bought by size that wouldn't touch the sides, just not leak so much lube....and I don't remember my bore groove either. I guess I need to shoot it more, huh.

Mike hit on bullet alloy and he's right. IF you're shooting BP, 25-1 is about as hard as you want and he's spot on about lubes as well. I used some Hawk jacketed bullets and even though they're annealed dead soft, which I understand is about the same as Linotype, I steered away from them in deference to the softer steels of the 1870's, when my double was made. I tried the heavier, RCBS cast bullet but just could not get it to regulate and the recoil was more than I wanted for the old rifle. It wasn't anywhere near too heavy for me, there was simply a significant difference between it and the lighter Lyman bullet.

In my initial post I had the bullet weight wrong. I said 450 grs., which is incorrect. I have corrected it to 350 grs.

sharps, thanks for the correction, glad I have a box of 50 340 grain Buffalo Arms bullets to try. When I get minute of deer or coyote, I'll be a happy camper!

This insight, loading recipes, bullet types gets me much farther along and is greatly appreciated.

Merry Christmas to all!

Mt Al,
You might try fireforming one of your cases that have the too tight necks. Use a forming load without a bullet, but with a granular filler (such as worn-out polishing media, grits, or with deference to sharps 45-90, cream of wheat) separated from the powder charge (a light charge of fast burning powder) with a quarter to half sheet of toilet paper tamped over the powder and the whole thing plugged with another wad of toilet paper. This will keep the necks squarer than expanding with a plug. If you find fireforming helps, fireform the rest of the cases. I just use an "M" die or 45 Colt expanding die with "shop made" plugs to bell or expand case necks that are long enough to square up. These die bodies are threaded 1/2"-20 and common bolts of that thread size are useful to make the plugs from. After a while a collection of different plugs will be accumulated for different uses. A lathe is a necessity of life, after all.
Mike

I've taken oversized M dies (but as close as I could get) and chucked them in a drill press and taken them down to just what I wanted with emery cloth on the turning die.

The 1904 DWM catalog shows lead bullets for 11 to 11.20 mm weighing between 19 and 25 grams.

I have loaded for an Austrian cape gun in 11,2x51R Kropatschek-Heissig (basically a shortened 11.15x60R Mauser), good success with around 300 grain bullets.
With the rifle I inherited a good supply of 11,15 mm lead bullets cast from an original mold, weight around 295 grains. These worked well.
The bore of this rifle is quite tight, groove diameter around 10.9 mm. So it was possible to use 300 grain jacketed bullets for the .44 Magnum. These worked well too.
Powders used were Swiss black powder and SR4759, velocity around 400 to 420 m/s

fuhrmann

This is the next installment of the process of regulating a Scherping double rifle in 43 Mauser, with much appreciation for those who have chimed in, extremely helpful.

Given the wide spread of the first black powder 385 grain loads, I used the Nitro for Black chart, taking the advice to speed up by reducing the bullet weight.

For starters, 6 cases were loaded with 31.5 grains of IMR 4198, CCI large rifle primer, 7 grains of Dacron and a 340 grain Buffalo Arms bullet w/lube. Seated to the recommended length.

Given how bad the first attempt was, I stuck with 30 yards. Could not have been more pleased!

Shot right, then left, the waited about 15 minutes between before shooting again.

Not sure how the pictures will show, but:
-The first double hit about 5.5” high and an inch apart.
-Second double, the bullet holes touched. I thought that was a fluke, but then….
-Third double, they almost touched!

They are hitting approx. 5” high, and per Der Ami, wonder if a bead fell off the front sight blade.

The Dacron puffs were found well-regulated about 7 yards from the muzzle, surprisingly clean. They were blown off course by about a foot at that distance from a light quartering wind due to their poor ballistic coefficient and sectional density.



Very pleased to be this close with a first Nitro for Black attempt. Now with questions:

How does one clean the barrel after shooting lead bullets with lube in the grooves? I inspected the barrels between shots and after the session and didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary, for what that’s worth.

With these ‘formed’ cases, .446 dia bullets just drop right through the neck on the case. Can I/should I just bump the necks, slightly bell the mouth and seat the bullets? I followed Der Ami’s advice as closely as possible.

Is it assumed, since the bullets hit so close at 30 yards, that they will ‘cross’ farther out? Next session I’d like to go waaaaay out to 50 yards with 8 loaded rounds. If that’s the case, should I reduce the load by a grain or so or just try again with the same load?

Thank you again for the advice, hope to be slaying critters at close range this fall!

Great progress and great questions.

I’ll defer to those more knowledgeable regarding changing the load before trying a further distance. If it were my rifle, I would keep the same load and see how it does.

Re the cases, if you can seat a bullet without resizing, and finish with good retention after seating, I would go that route. The thought being the less you work your brass, the better.

Loved your comments about Dacron’s BC.

Congrats on the progress.

Chris

Mt AI,
You seem to have a good handle on the project. I concur with CJF's comments, not only does less working of the neck mean longer case life as he said, but leaving the rest of the body" fireformed" will precisely center the cartridge in the chamber. Shooting the second shoot very quickly after the first, as you are correctly doing, sometimes makes it hard to determine whether the bullets are crossing or shooting wide. You can sort this out by using 2 targets side by side, shoot the right barrel on the target then quickly shoot the left barrel on the left target. Then after cooling, repeat the process. Once the correct number of pairs have been fired, place one target on top of the other and mark the bullet impacts on one target through the holes in the other one. This prevents delaying the second shot in a pair to locate the first. If your bullets are sized to .446" and "fall" through the fired neck, you might try them "as cast" (pan lube or by hand) and see how they work. Once you determine what limit you will put on your shots, you may want to start regulating the loads at a distance appropriate to that limit rather than 30 yards.
Mike

Mike, thank you and you mentioned this in an earlier post and I'll implement that method next time out.

Chris and Mike, I'll load up some identical rounds and shoot at 50 yards this time and see where things land and keep stretching until the groups exceed 'minute of deer' or so.

Your advice and others has been invaluable. Just wish there was more time to load, shoot, etc. but we get out when we can.

Mt Al
Good luck,
Mike