doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Alkanet Staining Technique

I have lurked for years and finally registered, first post on the forum. I would like to hear from those on the forum with experience on the following.

I primarily work on English/American Walnut shotgun stocks. I have read much information regarding the use of Alkanet and I want to make sure that my proposed plan regarding my first try at applying it. I have much experience using both the transtint aniline dye and the transfast powdered dye, but I worry about it fading on a competition gun that will see much use under the Florida sun. I read much about the Behlen Blood Red stain as well, but I wanted to go with a traditional Alkanet this time. I read a post on here regarding the Duane Wiebe method of refinishing and have implemented some of it into my plan as follows.

*Stock has been sanded to 220 grit and then bleached with Oxalic acid and neutralized with baking soda. Thoroughly rinsed with water afterward. It’s bone white and dry, ready for stain. Should I sand again at 220 before applying or just raise the grain with denatured alcohol and apply direct as is? I have seen some suggest to sand to 400 before applying any stain, but I worry about the sealer not penetrating as deeply. -Not sure that it matters in the end, either.

*I have mixed pure alkanet powder (Pakistan) to the rate of 2 tablespoons to 4 ounces of denatured alcohol in a sealed jar for my stain. I used teabags from Amazon to contain the powder and make it easier by not having to filter it later. My plan was to apply it directly to the wood with a foam brush with as many coats until I am happy with it with no blotches. From what I understand, the wood will look beet purple and not look all that great until oil is added later. I know the traditional method is with BLO, but I am not a fan of it at all and there are many modern alternatives.

*I have always used Daly’s products to refinish. I have added 1/2 tablespoon of Alkanet directly to 4 ounces of Daly’s Ship’n Shore for my seal coat and this will also help blend the stain coat in somewhat. I always add seal coat until it wont take anymore (usually two coats) and let dry for 3 days. I use the 3M 7448 Gray Scothbrite pad between coats then sand to 400 grit afterward for final finish.

*The same as the above for Daly’s Seafin for the finish, 1/2 tablespoon of Alkanet powder added directly to 4 ounces of the Seafin. I wait 1 day between coats and build it up until I am happy with it, followed by a White 3M Scotchbrite pad 0000 equivalent between coats.

Final finishing with a paraffin lamp oil & rottenstone mix applied with a square of new felt.

Thoughts or suggestions regarding the above are appreciated. Thanks to all in advance with the sharing of past experiences and outcomes regarding the above. I plan to start on this next week and can take photos for all and share here if wanted.

This may help. Have a look at the posting in the frequently asked question section "Traditional oil stock finish". Red Oil is the traditional way of using Alkanet on gun stocks, it is worth making but if you make it now it will be ready to use in about eight months tine because the root pieces is used not powder well it was used to colour English gun stocks starting about two hundred years ago when time was not as expensive as it is today though still very much used today. As for bleaching the wood first my mind just screams why wood bleaches damages the Lignin?

I use a mild oxalic acid solution that gently lifts any remaining stains, etc. from the wood. It’s far from household bleach and if it was good enough for the British Best gunmakers to do it, I suppose it will suit me well also. I’ve never had any issue using it and stains are more uniform as a result.

I use red oil myself and often finish with Daly's. I use ground root powder, and it seems to give good color without having to wait for months. I also add the root powder to my finish and sealer.

Great to hear it. I think Daly’s makes a great, durable finish on gunstocks. I also plan on doing the same adding alkanet to the sealer and finish as well. Thanks for your input here.

I’d love to see some step by step pictures of stock finishing

Here is a thread I put together on a Greener re-stock, I used red oil and Daly's on it.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=589796#Post589796

Wow, that alkanet really makes it pop!! Great before and after photos.

I have also used powder instead of whole root, but I've wondered if there might be a reason that the traditional red oil called for root instead of powder

Damascus, et al: do you have any insight into this?

Woodreaux,
Was powder commonly available when the traditional red oil was formulated?
Mike

Good question, Mike. I didn't know the answer for sure, but I was able to find some interesting info.

Alkanet is an ancient dye, with many names and many uses through history. There are dying recipes going back to Egyptian papyri. Here's a transcript of one:

"Grind some walnuts with some alkanet of good quality. This done, place them in some strong vinegar; grind again; add some pomegranate bark to this; lay aside three days; and after this, plunge the wool in it and it will be dyed cold. It is said that there is a certain acanthus which furnishes the purple color; moistened with some natron of Berenice in place of nuts, it produces the same effect.“

interesting side note: Another recipe calls for some drachma of urine, as a solvent I reckon

All that to say, it looks like the Egyptians ground it up before using it, so the idea of powderized alkanet is not new

Sorry for the delay in replying my PC decided to go over to the enemy for a time.
Traditional Red Oil and Powdered Alkanet> There is quite a difference between the two.
Traditional Red Oil is obtained by Leaching the colour from the Alkanet root with oil sadly this takes many months of waiting, though now a days people want things yesterday. The Major benefit of the traditional method is that the end results is a very pure dying oil with extremely little root debris because this is left in the container when the oil is removed so not to form darker areas in the more absorbent places in the wood.
Alkanet powder is what it says ground alkanet root containing all the fibre partials and any other contaminants that may be around during its processing. Because of the high contents of insoluble partials it could be compered more to paint rather than a dye. In my experience it does not produce that eye catching contrast on Walnut like the traditional Red Oil. But like all opinions there are differences so you do have to try both and make your choice though my opinion is the Victorian gunmakers got it right with traditional Red Oil.

I find that the root powder settles out and forms a thick sludge in the bottom of the can leaving the oil which is relatively free of particulate matter at the top.

Woodredaux,
I wonder if "drachma of urine" is Ammonia. This comes to mind because of memories of raising our children before disposable diapers.
Mike

Has anyone ever tried putting alkanet powder in tea bags?

Mike-- I mistyped one thing: should not have said 'some drachma of urine'. I meant to be writing 'a drachma of urine'. I don't know what the measurement is exactly, but a drachma was a unit of weight. So it seems that it was really just urine. a whole drachma of it...


As for the powder vs root, I see no reason that the little particulates and such cant be filtered out, either prospectively as Brent suggested in a tea bag, etc, or after the bulk of the powder has settled at the bottom, as SKB suggested.

Not long after my last post here, I made up a batch of red oil consisting of 12 oz of raw linseed oil (Viking brand) and 1.5 teaspoons of food-grade alkanet powder. The mixture been in a jam jar in the window of my shop for just over 6 months, and I have shaken it occasionally to resuspend the powder in solution. It doesn't take long for a relatively thick sludge layer to form on the bottom of the jar, and the color of the oil went dark red fairly quickly as well.

Last night, I decanted the red oil into an separate container, straining it with a paint filter. The resulting oil seemed to be almost entirely free of powder, but not perfectly clear. To increase the purity, I then rigged up a mason jar with a coffee filter and repeated the filtering process.

The result, as far as I can tell, is an extremely dark red oil with minimal residual powder.

My conclusions:
1. With careful decanting and filtration, a red oil can be made without fear of contaminating the oil with significant solids
2. Alkanet powder yields a very dark red oil, and a much shorter dwell time would almost certainly have been fine.
3. Along those same lines, I would use less of the powder in subsequent red oil mixtures. 1.5 tsp to 12 oz seemed to be excessive.

Unfiltered:


Carefully decanting through a paint filter:


The sludge left over after decanting:


Not much alkanet powder in the filter (not fine enough?):


Coffee Filter on a Mason Jar:





The final product:


After 24 hours or so, almost no powder has settled to the bottom:

Jim,
You mentioned "food grade Alkanet", is it available at local grocery stores and if so, what is the brand name?
Mike

Mike-- I probably should have said 'cosmetic grade'. It is not in any stores around my area, but I bought a 1 oz packet from Amazon-- currently sells for $5

https://www.amazon.com/Raven-Moonlight-Herbs-Alkanet-Powder/dp/B005BWFVGU

I'm doing a followup experiment: 1/2 tsp of alkanet powder in 9 oz of raw linseed oil (I intended to do 8 oz but overserved myself). I am thinking of 24-72 hours total of steeping before decant and filter. I'll probably assess each day and decant as soon as it looks like the powder has fallen out of solution. I'll then compare the two oils for color on a paper towel just to see how much is gained by a long steeping process vs. the quick and hopefully not too dirty. Will report back.

This is another reliable source for the powder is Mountain Rise Herbs. Esp. Popular with muzzleloader builders



https://mountainroseherbs.com/search-results-page?q=alkanet%20root%20powder

Woodreaux, I appreciate you sharing your experiments with us. I’ve wanted to try the same myself. Let us know how this last batch turns out.

I get my root powder from mountain rose herbs too.

Has anyone tried Achiote/Annatto seeds or paste, used to give a red color in Mexican cooking.
Mike

I have not heard of that being used, Mike. Doesn't mean it hasnt been though

The new red oil is at 24 hours.

The powder settled and the oil above appeared clear and fairly nice red.



Since its storming and overcast today, I decided to shake the mixture up and stick the jar in the microwave for a minute (low power microwave-- really only got it warm).

The powder resuspends and makes for a very dark looking concoction. I suspect I could stop the steeping tomorrow and have a very nice, useable oil. :

Well, I guess I'll have to be the one to try.
Mike

I find that the darker oil, the better it works. YMMV.

Day 3:

With the light shining just right, you can see through it. Not quite as dark red as I am hoping for, but still seems a little redder than yesterday:




Once again, microwaved for 1 minute to warm it then stuck it back in the window for one last day. Planning to filter tomorrow.

Results (edited post with new info):

Filtering with lab filter paper leads to essentially no residual powder in the oil, but takes a very long time, even using the higher micron paper. Also, the low alkanet root : oil ratio was not sufficiently dark to my eye, especially compared to the higher concentration long-brew.
Here is the new oil and the slow brew high test oil filtering side by side.


I decided to add another 1/2 tsp to the new red oil, warm it in the microwave, and leave for 24 hours. I filtered it again with the high flow paper, but warmed it again before filtering to decrease viscosity. This helped.
The result was an oil that is just as dark as the long-brew oil, and with essentially no residue in it.
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I also had a little real turpentine with alkanet steeping and I decided to filter that through the paper as well. The color is very dark and the filtration was much easier.

This has been sitting since last fall at least, much less scientific, I just toss a bunch in a jar of BLO.



Quiet a few coats, maybe 8 or so, on a nice stick of Tessier French walnut, the wood is lighter in person than the pics make it appear.

Nice thread.