doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Meffert hot rod? Action source

Just bought at auction a Meffert with Lindneresque action long and overhanging secondary sears. Wears the Vorrat has been very well sleeved and choke tubed. 12ga 6.75lbs 28 3/8 barrels. I plan to have barrels refinished showing the Damascus chambers and top rib. I know poor gun has no collector value but I can sure put it to use with those barrels and choke tubes.
So where did he source this action 1891-1893 it looks much like a Lindner? What do you fellows think?

Jtplumb,
I don't believe that is a Vorrat mark, rather, I believe it is a similar British mark. A Vorrat mark typically would have only been applied once and on the top of the barrels (near the doll's head). My speculation is, rather than a GI bring back, it may have been a "Tommy" bring back and sleeved in the UK, hence the marks. The color case, bluing and choke tubes may have been done in either the UK or US, but I think the US because the barrel flats are left black. Germans, for sure, and Brits maybe would have polished them bright. I'm also not sure how popular choke tubes are in the UK. I believe Meffert made their own actions (maybe Lindner got theirs from Meffert). I agree about the lack of collector interest but don't agree it is a poor gun. You will likely have many years of fine use and enjoyment from it. When you have the barrels refinished, I suggest you have the color removed from the flats. Then, a close inspection may reveal the residue of the original proof marks (maybe including the date of proof).
Mike

Maybe, sure looks similar

Ah, they are haphazardly stamped, unlike the British Contingent, & I have seen similar. If the marks were British, it would not have been just the Crown over V, but the full regiment of marks. The only time I have seen only one British Proofmark was just the Rampant Lion on barrels on Bohemian Wares. This example dates to a very specific period of January 1893 - April 1893 and was just hangin' around the shop @ Imann. Meffert, where Post WWII Brno was the one that was beaten by the Russians with a Rubber Hose in a cellar till he tired of it. He & his wife gave a few fotos away, locked the door the disappeared into the night.

The original marks have been destroyed leaving only speculation.

The longarm has the Lindner safety; >>Triebel Bump<< on the forend iron and a lengthy frame along with Beltls & Braces on the A&D Body Action.

EVERY mechanic in Suhl & Zella-Mehlis, less Lindner in Suhl & Oskar Will in Zella - Mehlis, was too cheap to pay for the APUN; therefore, there were stabs @ alternate platforms until the Patent Protection Period expired. Sauer could have handled the deal on the actions w/ the APUN from A. Francotte, but the Daly-Schoverling-Lindner seems to be the connection as I have not seen a Sauer with the APUN? Lindner either sourced the actions from Francotte or had them machined @ Sauer and the APUN applied @ a Satellite Stamping Station where the APUN was paid. Unequivocally, Meffert was not involved in sourcing....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So Meffert sourced from Lindner, Sauer or Francotte. Either way it seems to be the action I was looking for sold in the German Market. I will consider my search ended. Again thanks for all of the help you Gentlemen provide! This one has a serial number on the bottom plate, I could see it through action flat gap for back lump. Would that correspond to the Lindner numbers or Meffert assigned?

Too, I forgot to note the long toplever. I have not idea on the serial number without seeing it. H.A. Lindner was about the only one in Suhl paying the APUN, and Charles Daly was behind that because of the end users in the U.S. of A. Now I do not know if H.A. was getting raw blocks of steel from Liège with the APUN stamped on them and then H.A. Lindner had a subcontractor to file it? Or if the frame was already filed in Liège w/ the APUN and H.A. Lindner polished and added the components? And Sauer was about the only other Suhl maker to offer the A&D Body Action with Belts & Braces, but after the APUN protection period ended.

It would have been nice to see if Lindner's 2nd series Quality Control Stamp was on the tubes. Being so early and completed by early 1893, I would hazard a guess a Lindner number, but that is just rampant speculation.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Interesting also that a Meffert retailed longarm with the Latest & Greatest action @ the time wasn't submitted for the full regiment of proof?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

On the sourcing, H.A. Lindner had a presence under the Sauer umbrella and Sauer was doing the heavy lifting for H.A. Lindner. Then A. Francotte was their primary Liège sourcing point.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I wasn't suggesting that Meffert didn't submit the gun for full proofs. I opined that the crown Vs (multiple) came with the sleeving by a British firm, and suggested the barrel flats be polished bright to see what German proofs are left (hopefully original proof date).

I will find out soon. I read that it has always been that the English were required by law to mark barrels sleeved if so. Don’t think sleeving was done there. Also you were correct about the marks there isn’t any difference between the v and crown from Germany or London they look identical. These as Raimey has pointed out are nonetheless German. I will share any information I can find when gun is in hand, maybe it will provide some new information about these actions. I do prefer them above most!

Um, the actions were the Pinnacle of Perfektion being a Grande Complication. One item that would clinch the deal would be the length of the frame. Lindner sourced frame forgings from Sauer, Triebel(remember H.A. Lindner married Hedwig Triebel on April 27th, 1877 so there was a tight & direct Triebel sourcing line) and possibly the Brothers Ritz. But the frame should be 56mm.....

My question lies with the period during the APUN, being where were the frame forgings sourced & how was the frame supplied to have the APUN applied?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, with the fluid steel discussion on one of Argo44's threads, I do wonder when H.A. Lindner or Daly decided to migrate to Krupp Fluid Steel & Wittner? Both were huge leaps in tube steel and I can under stand the Trust in Krupp and it may have been the same with Wittner. I believe H.A. Lindner & others considered the Life on the end user in their own hands and made decisions to protect them, along with compensation in mind....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I also have a Daly story brewing, just have not had time to pen it. The Story goes(this is not it but a prelude), Daly & Schoverling were selling skimpies & flimsies @ Böker and they have stashed away enough cash & contacts to mount a venture of their own. Daly wanted to go Big & Bold so he ponied up at the bar in England conveying his demands for a Sporting Gun. They almost ran him out on a rail saying you are a Loon and this will not sell. But Daly had the pulse of the America Sportsman and he knew, he just knew what the American Sportsman wanted. In hindsight he was 1000% correct. But Daly bought some Scott Kits and steamed home. Daly had befriended Gunmakers Abby & Foster of Chicago and fortunately they had just devised a quaint contraption to add Belts & Braces to the Doll's Head Extension. Abby & Foster found patent protection under Nr. 114,081 on April 25th, 1871. Seven short years later Abby goes toes up & leaves Daly to his own devices searching for >>The Mechanic<< to perfekt his platform & to fulfill his orders to the American Sportsman. It is said that the Boston & Philadelphia contingent of Gunmakers made the introduction of Daly to Lindner & I assume it was circa 1870. So with Abby making his last file stroke, Daly turned to H.A. Lindner, who too appreciated the style of the American Sportsman, and the Rest is History.

I typed all that to say that Daly style guns aren't really accepted in Germany, and every Blue Moon you find one offering by a Suhl maker that exemplifies the demands of the American Sportsman. And this Imm. Meffert looks just to be that.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

In that same Abby Vein, the Rigby >>Rising Bite<< is actually the brainchild of Brother George Thackeray Abby and found patent protection under Nr. 87,814 on March 16th, 1869.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here is a Rasch with the secondary sears in 16ga but looks to me like a Sauer sourced action. I would have jumped for this one if it wasn’t for the side safety. I’m not very fond of that saftey. Other than that it definitely has potential!

Exactly, a Greener Safety is a huge turn-off to me too... I don't think a smokepole w/ a Greener safety would have sold well in the U.S. of A. during the period. Too, there actually exists an automatic Greener safety but I have not seen one on a German gun just yet.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Most German mechanics would say that would make you anything to meet your wishes, i.e. the Customer is King, but I would say within reason. Most were reluctant to fill American orders until times were difficult after the 1st Major Disagreement in Europe. Then it was all about Bread money, where previously Suhl makers were envious/jealous of H.A. Lindner & desired to keep Lindner sort of estranged. Daly led the way for the American retailers sourcing Suhl and as his demand outpaced Lindner's most 4 or 5 man apprentice shop, Sauer was called in to fill orders and other Guns houses like V-L&D, etc sourced Sauer. So one sees American type sporting weapons from Sauer. Too, H.A. Lindner's 3 story house w/ the basement & 1st Floor strictly for business and shop, was on Schleusinger Straße and guess just who was 2 houses down?? Rolf Sauer...... But the longer frames do not have roots @ Sauer but @ Lindner.

Also, it may have been that Daly had purchased Scott parts kits and had Gebrüder Abby to assemble them before Abby expired. Don't forget that German Schoverling is in the background pulling strings.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The Belts & Braces novel addition to the A&D Body Action found protection in say 1883/1884. Lindner used the Belts & Braces A&D Platform but cease paying the APUN is say 1892. So subtracting 17 years for the Protection Period would put you @ the 1875 Novel Date of the A&D Body Action. Just from memory, but I just do not think a Suhl maker other than Lindner offered an A&D Body Action Platform until after 1902(1884 plus 17 years). The Suhl makers dabbled with Blitz type action and sidelocks, but keeping from ponying up the funds for the APUN.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I know you mentioned the Oskar will Venus being Lindneresque but I was kind of surprised to see Scott in the catalog mentioned in its description? Pic from German hunting gun site archive

That particular advert is touring the >>Scott Spindle<< component of the lockup....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Gun is serial number 508 on bottom plate and trigger guard. Still tight. Has .729 bores, 2 3/4” chambers,long forcing cones and briley thin wall chokes.

Yeah, 58mm is quite close to the 56mm/2.2" that was touted in adverts. Does it have a menacing muzzle?

With the source load that Schoverling, Daly & Gales could kraal, Lindner & his 3-4 apprentices were quite overloaded & outside their abilities. So Lindner outsourced and was pretty much a last stroke guy and applied his Quality Control Seal of Approval, which was somewhat typical in a Cottage Industry. Such an Industry, where one would have to herd cats on larger contracts like the Military is what drove the Military to establish arsenals in Berlin & Erfurt instead of dealing with hundreds of Cottage Industry Gunsmiths. Also, local gunsmiths really didn't want to acknowledge anything about Lindner and disparagingly referred to Lindner as a >>Rucksack Büchsenmacher<<, being envious of his money making venture w/ S,D&G. It has been stated that a lot of Lindner's heavy lifting was done @ Schilling & Triebel and this may be so. But it seems that rather Sauer could be a more practical source of the heavy lifting along with Triebel components. Lindner was ferry guns & parts in his rucksack from sourcing point to sourcing point.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Naw no menacing muzzle, probably lost when sleeved. Is much lighter without the pad. Has 14.25 in of wood lop, will just put a thin basket weave horn plate on and enjoy 6lbs 10oz and fulcrum 1/2” in front of hinge pin. Felt perfect that way!

I may have missed it, but what was the tube length?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

28” was lucky and found couple extra briley first series tubes for barrels. Sleeving was done so well and not marked “sleeved”makes me think someone homegrown did the work. Forcing cones are long and briley tubes. Who ever soldered these in was a real pro.

But information on H.A. Lindner is most difficult to mine as he was detested by inland / local mechanics as they were just so envious of his contract w/ Daly & the Amerikanisch market. It is sort of like he info was wiped from history by locals, but that really isn't the case, he just didn't really have any product outlets less the Daly & the American market. H.A. Linndner perfekted the A&D Body Action w/ Belts & Braces and if you ever have the cover off, pleasure us w/ the well polished components. As I have stated prior, H.A. had an expansion in circa 1905 and then on Nov. 10th 1911 signed on w/ the Suhl Manufacturers Association in hopes of Ernst taking the reins but that wasn't to be so as in 3 short years he fell in fierce fighting w/ the Brits @ Bellewaarde and the Daly Dynasty was devastated beyond all expectations. Lindner with his Quality Seal of Approval guaranteed that his products were made in British fashion and on par or above anything originating in the Little British Isles.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Does the 508 serial number line up with the Hal marked guns of 1893 or does Mr. Georgi have that number accounted for yet?

It could well fit in the 2nd Series and I have no idea on Georgi's/Petrov's list. There's a couple threads I will have to wade thru to see what might be out.....

What hurts is the lack of HAL over Crossed Sidearms or less likely Crown over Crossed Sidearms. But that info, if any, was unfortunately lost in the sleeving effort.

Just off the cuff, the change over was circa 1892, so could easily be.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here is another with no Hal very similar to this one.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...99--damascus-finsih.cfm?gun_id=101005060

Fantastic find on that one too..... Same Bat Time & Same Bat Channel. Single Vorrats on Flats & Water-Table puts it @ the exact same point in time. The retailer is depending on the VCS monogram on the buttplate to ID the longarm. So it puts a little credence in Schilling's column. It could well be a Sister to the Meffert.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too the reason the Crown over Crossed Sidearms or HAL over Crossed Sidearms is absent is that Lindner just didn't finish it.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ah, I now see the name V. Chr. Schilling atop the pattern welded tubes. I would say this isn't an inland offering or a gun for the German speaking market, but it does wear sling swivels. But I am convinced it came over in a Daly badged box.....

Or it very well could have been in the lot when right after the 1891 McKinley Tariff, when Lindner as a 1st Klass passenger boarded a watercraft to the New World. Onboard with his lot of New Guns, he coordinated a shooting competition and then declared his holdings as used under the U.S. of A. import laws. Then all the guns were taken to S,D&G's shop, cleaned, refurbed a bit & sold >>As New<<..... Easily could have been the case....

I have seen the log books I believe & will see if I can find the date.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

That one has sincher in gold according to description.

>>Sincher<< doesn't make sense but >>Sicher<< would. But I still find it hard to believe it to be a War Trophy in that high condition?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

On 2nd thought it just had to be an inland offering with reproofs, cheekpiece, sling swivels, ..... The toplever & church windows are different from Lindner's.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Langenhan/Gebrüder Langguth/Luck mechanic......





I do not think it is Luck, but could be??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think that eagle with the L may just be Gebruder Luck

Courtesy of German hunting guns archive

Yeah, that's it - Luck it is as I thought & Ford confirmed it in an earlier thread. But good find.

I was trying to chase down the Crowned script Ls, whatever, on the tubes of the Schilling.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So who did what on this schilling? All the shillings I have seen have been very impressive, I didn’t think he was just a middle man or retailer?

I can't lay blame for them making the forend iron or the pattern welded tubes, but other than that they pretty much did everything. Probably forged the frame & machined it? Schilling was a formidable concern that did a huge amount of heavy lifting up till WWI. They could have been the Poster Child for Ludwig Loewe machinery & maybe an outlet. When the business faltered or there weren't any apparent heirs, H. Krieghoff in 1919(not 1914) purchased all the machinery & it was this purchase that catapulted he & H. Krieghoff to be the next formidable concern that could support the current & next conflict. Speaking of outsourcing, during the 2nd Major Disagreement in Europe, the imported work force was housed in lean-tos between the shops / factory buildings.

Don't forget that as Disagreements consumed the workforce and mechanization had to be embraced more & more that there had to be more & more service personnel to keep the machinery @ full throttle. And a Service Industry developed & evolved.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It was in 1919 that H. Krieghoff purchased the assets(including property) of V. Chr. Schilling @ Rimbachstraße 37 for 100,000 Reichmarks($23,810).

In 1935 Schüler notes in an advert that he is the Daly supplier and that he has taken the place of Schilling & Triebel who used Lindner as a conduit to Daly.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So maybe schilling was forging that actions on 2nd series?

No, if they were, I would think we would see more Lindner type actions from Schilling. But what we see are a smattering of Lindner actions with Schillings name early on in the 1st series & then Sauer comes in on the 2nd series, Post 1902, and you see a lot of similar frames. I just do not think Sauer would be getting forgings from Schilling.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And too, don't forget in the mid 1800s that Sauer & Schilling were joined @ the hip:

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/schilling-valentin-christoph/

I still remember something of Schillings being sold in 1914... I will continue to search.

Also, I have read that Germany passed a law that came into effect in 1924 that weapons had to be dated.... Going to chase that too.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And another Meffert Lindneresque
https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...ock-double-barrel-shotgun-two-barrel-set

General Sam Walker was Commanding General of the Third Infantry Division in Wuerzburg Germany in the early 1970s. His father was a WW2 General that was KIA in the Korean War. We (Facilities Engineers) made a built-in gun case in his quarters. In addion to this gun, he had drillings and a 250-3000 Savage Mod 99, with which he shot a Chamois buck. The German guns were his father's war trophy "bring backs". A lot of anecdotes, things were good in those days, with a hunter as CG.
Mike

How about a fine Schaefer, I do mean fine!
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1065304101

Most interesting. I wonder if this was one of Petrov's collection? Stellar accents & wood. 1st Lindner series(very late) and true Lindner series with what looks to be an APUN on the standing breech? Early type A&D Body Action Frame.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>William R. Schaefer was located 61 Elm Street, Boston, Mass. Schaefer started his business circa 1853 and made custom shotguns. By 1883 it was Schaefer & Son and they were selling the hammerless (Daly type) double. Schaefer's guns are my favorite of all the custom American Hammer gun makers. William Schaefer is also well known for both making and shooting percussion target rifles. The majority of his doubles show just a little line engraving, or none at all.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=71942&page=all


There looks to be text on the medallion and on the top rib. I have serious reservations that Schaefer & Sohn contributed any effort as by this time in Schaefer's life he was just a Gunsmith Manager. He just placed an order thru Daly to Lindner or possibly directly to Lindner.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Lindner Nr. 2949 1st Series - Emil Eckholdt was the tubeset knitter. Emil Eckholdt hung out his gunmaking single 2 years after H.A. Lindner.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I requested additional fotos but considering the price & knowing the kat doesn't know that he has, I would say he probably won't comply to my request.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Well, I lied.....







Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The top-rib text reads >>Wm. R. Schaefer Boston - Superior Quality<<, maybe that is where the rungs are quality originated?


Inverted APUN in French is 541.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Just thumbin' thru a lot of chaff, it appears that ole Schaefer had several lower numbers, more than likely in the 2nd Lindner Series, that were stamped >>Saxony<<. Evidently, Suhl didn't know exactly where it was located & had to commission a Surveyor, or multiple Surveyors, to define where they were as Suhl used say 4 different positions for their Country of Origin terms.

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Anyone wish to know the 4, or more....???? Anyone taggin' along¿¿¿¿¿

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

What was the other 2 besides Prussia and Saxony?

Thuringia and the final one was the obvious- Germany....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Lindner - Daly Nr. 2929 1st Series had APUN 411.......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The Schaefer & Sohn - Lindner sourced A&D Body Action dates to about 1885. About this time, Schaefer was peddlin' W. Richards platforms in two sizes - >>The Standard<< Model at $185 and >>The Premier<< at $300. So >>Superior Quality<< on Lindner guns may have an origin @ Schaefer??? Lots of moving pieces; i.e..... Herding Cats....

Also, E.C. Schmidt was an apprentice @ Schaefer & Son & Schmidt sort of picked up the pieces when the Schaefer & Son firm faltered.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And the pattern welded tubes are Bernard 3 Iron....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And there really shouldn't be any true Schaefer & Sohn offerings post 1893/18094 as some pipe smoker burned the place down by tossing a match into packing material????

>>Yeah according the Fire Marshall the fire was started by a match being dropped into some packing material. Would be nice to know what the names & address were on the shipping box.....<<

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=405300

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Seems E.C. Schmidt hung out his shingle by the early 1890s and was active till at least 1912 & for the duration he was at 15 Cornhill(Washington Street????), Ward 6, Boston, Massachusetts. From the little available info, it would seem he paralleled the likes of Josef/Joseph Jakob of Philadephia being an artisian & somewhat unknown.

E.C. Schmidt (Schaefer's successor in Boston - William R. Schaefer 11 Dock Square, Boston for 1862)

F.G. Doell 11 Dock Square
Charles H. Euterbrouk - 17 Portland
W.R. Schaefer & Son, 61 Elm - owned by R.E. Denman(fire February 13th, 1894 - match dropped in packing material)
all in 1889 Listing

Richard Schaefer commited susicide in 1909.<<

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=405300&page=1


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=104850&page=1

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>...... my 1st thoughts were that E.C. Schmidt being an employee of Schaefer(I wonder if Richard Schaefer & E.C. Schmidt were related, brother-in-laws or something????) had access to the stockpile of Schaefer. But the addition of thet sideclips would point to later sourcing, which I'm sure had to go thru Schoverling, Daly & Gales as I don't think Schaefer had a direct line to H.A. Lindner in Suhl. Remember this was during the tariff phase. So how would it be devoid of a serial number & be sourced thru Schoverling, Daly & Gales? Boy a peek at their ledger would be most informative.




1883 Advert/Article<<

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=405300&page=2

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=466043&Searchpage=1&Main=38645&Words=golcher&Search=true#Post466043\

>>Adam, Your gun was made in Birmingham!At the time that the gun was made it was a practice in Birmingham to stamp the proof marks[pre1904 black powder] on the barrels, rather than on the barrel flats when a gun was destined to be export.
Golcher was partnered with Clabrough ,they traded under the name ,Clabrough, Golcher & Co. Partnership established in 1882. Books by Lawrence P Shelton detail this relationship.
Clabrough had a significant firearms manufacturing plant in Birmingham, and major warehouse/store in San Francisco, unfortunately destroyed in the 1906 earth quake.
Your gun is pictured as a Golcher gun in the 1890 Clabrough @ Golcher catalogue, the price was $35 .by comparison their best side lock ejector was priced gun at $200......<<


Intereting tid-bit of info that I seemed to have missed: >>gun was made in Birmingham!At the time that the gun was made it was a practice in Birmingham to stamp the proof marks[pre1904 black powder] on the barrels, rather than on the barrel flats when a gun was destined to be export.<<






Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ah, posted it on the wrong thread....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

1893 Meffert Lindner sleeved choke tubed sporting clays gun. Lots of fun to shoot.